[Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to "by use"

Nick Allen nick.allen.54 at gmail.com
Thu Jan 16 17:42:42 UTC 2014


Hi,

I think this is in danger of getting too technical.

As a for instance; a taxi in the UK is actually legally classed as a 
'hackney carriage'. However it normally carries a sign saying 'taxi' and 
in general terms everyone knows what a taxi in the UK is. The driver, if 
employed as a 'taxi driver' will have had a test & passed additional 
requirements to have a hackney carriage license - but will stop if you 
shout 'TAXI'. I've seen 'taxi' written on the road several times, but 
never 'hackney carriage'.

Throughout the world I am sure there are similar legal definitions, but 
you will probably recognize something that will take you and your 
luggage, and will have a similar function to a UK taxi. Some kind of 
similar abbreviation to 'taxi' will be written on the road.

I'm sure that in every country the driver themselves, plus the legal 
professions, will know the legal definitions, and will consider any 
navigation system or map as an 'indication only' - if you were stopped 
in the wrong place or using the wrong traffic lane you might blame the 
satnav, but you can't use it as a legal defense.

There will be similar long winded legal definitions for omnibus, bus, 
coach, tram, etc. etc. They probably won't cover the lovingly restored 
vehicle from 1907 which doesn't carry fare paying passengers, or any 
other number of similar exemptions. In the UK we are lucky enough to 
have the highway code, which gives us simple guidance, and there are 
probably similar documents available for other countries.

If we're tagging a lane marked 'buses & taxis only', then the tags 
should be similarly simple, and it's up to the vehicle driver to make 
sure they are complying with the laws applicable to them, and it's not 
up to us to add tags for every obscure legal definition available.

Regards

Nick (Tallguy)



On 16/01/14 16:13, Colin Smale wrote:
>
> Nobody uses the archaic word "omnibus" these days. You may as well 
> suggest replacing "car" with "horseless carriage".
>
> I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are 
> irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste 
> our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a taxi with no passengers is 
> still a taxi, whether a bus on its way back to the depot is still a 
> PSV, whether a bus being driven by a mechanic on a test-drive is 
> allowed in a bus lane, all these things are going to vary by country. 
> Why don't we all come up individually with a model which fits our own 
> countries, and then we can see how much correlation there is between 
> the countries.
>
> A few questions which come to mind:
>
>   * If there is a road sign indicating "Taxis only" (might be a road,
>     might be parking), what is considered a Taxi?
>   * When is a bus allowed to use a bus lane? Does it include
>     long-distance scheduled services? Does it include "touring cars"
>     (a.k.a. coaches in the UK)? Does it include sightseeing tours?
>   * What is considered a PSV? Does this concept actually exist in your
>     country - for vehicle licensing or for driver licensing or
>     something else?
>
> This is intended to *derive* a model of reality, instead of suggesting 
> thousands of potential ways of tagging things until almost everyone 
> gives up and goes home.
>
> Whatever tagging scheme is used, it should have some way of 
> representing reality in many (preferably all) countries. If the 
> semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just 
> document the standards for that country and move on.
>
> Colin
>
> On 2014-01-16 16:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>>
>> 2014/1/15 martinq <osm-martinq at fantasymail.de 
>> <mailto:osm-martinq at fantasymail.de>>
>>
>>     "in service" was (and is) not required by the definition &
>>     description of the "psv" tag or the "taxi". Only in "bus" it was
>>     mixed in ("acting as a public service").
>>
>>
>>
>> "in service" is implicit in "public service vehicle", because if they 
>> are not in service they are not psv. For taxi I am not sure, I don't 
>> know whether a taxi is a taxi when the driver is not working, but my 
>> guess is it is not. Maybe someone has more references to clear this up.
>>
>>
>>     There is no way to tag "taxi in service" so far in OSM, only
>>     "taxi" (as a car category).
>>
>>
>>
>> is there really a "taxi" vehicle category? I am aware that the 
>> vehicle has certain requisites e.g. in Germany in order to be able to 
>> work as taxi, but I am not sure if it is a taxi also off duty.
>>
>>
>>
>>     So I do not agree that "taxi" and "psv" belong to the "by-use" group.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK, if you get more we have to think about how this can be handled 
>> (e.g. voting?)
>>
>>
>>     I strongly suggest to move "psv", "bus" and "taxi" back to the
>>     original place in the wiki!
>>
>>
>>
>> for bus there shouldn't be space for discussion, as the definition is 
>> explicit for a long time.
>>
>>
>>     Most mappers are not native English speakers. We can only guess
>>     what they really understand and have understood. But I don't
>>     think it is an intuitive tag.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that people that are not native speakers are less of a 
>> problem, as they won't have an idea about the meaning of a cryptic 
>> abbreviation prior to looking it up in the wiki, while people 
>> speaking English but not UK English as their mothertongue are more at 
>> risk of understanding something else (and not looking the definition 
>> up in the wiki).
>>
>> I do agree that it is not an intuitive tag (but it saves us lots of 
>> bytes in the db ;-) ), and it is a very old tag and quite used.
>>
>>
>>
>>             2) Introduce value "public_transport"
>>             omnibus=no & bus=yes can also be expressed as
>>         omnibus=public_transport
>>         IMHO we can stick to psv.
>>
>>     not clear to me. psv for what?
>>
>> as generic term for buses and taxis. I agree that creating a new 
>> vehicle class "omnibus" is also appealing, and there are currently 0 
>> uses of this key so it might work out.
>>
>>
>>     Separating "bus" as vehicle category from "by-use" - and putting
>>     it into a value like - is not just more consistent: It is more
>>     flexible (I can distinguish between taxi in service and any taxi
>>     the same way), it easier to understand what
>>     omnibus=public_transport means, compared to the current "bus=yes".
>>
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>      3) Depreciate"psv" (or broaden the meaning to all "public service"
>>
>>     because of the JOSM turn restriction plugin? What about changing that
>>     plugin?
>>
>>
>>
>> "broaden" the usage will probably not get a majority, but we can see. 
>> Not sure if this is needed anyway.
>>
>>     no, the argument for depreciation was: There is no need for this
>>     artificial group: Grouping taxi (both "in service" as well as not
>>     in service) with only those buses acting as public transport.
>>     Taxi access and bus access are distinct things. No ambiguous,
>>     poorly understood (here the poor plug-in just confirms that PSV
>>     is not well-understood) short-cut like "psv" is needed. If taxi
>>     and bus can access, why not bus=* & taxi=*?
>>
>>
>>
>> you mean "omnibus" rather than bus, no? +1
>>
>>     By the way:
>>     The key name "tourist_bus" is also non-intuitive, not every
>>     non-public transport bus is a "tourist bus
>>
>>
>>
>> well, as this doesn't seem to be well defined outside of OSM we can 
>> use what we think is OK, currently the definition is "a bus not 
>> acting as a public service vehicle"
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>>
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>
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-- 

Nick

Volunteer 'Tallguy' for 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team

Mapping volunteer 'Tallguy' for http://www.openstreetmap.org 
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/>

Treasurer, website & Bonus Ball admin for 
http://www.6thswanleyscouts.org.uk/ (treasurer at 6thswanleyscouts.org.uk 
<mailto:treasurer at 6thswanleyscouts.org.uk>)

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