[Tagging] English translations in non-english countries

Mon Sep 15 09:36:44 UTC 2014

Thanks for the thoughtful replies.  I understand the issue now.  With the multitude of:

- places to get information 

- areas of responsibility  (EG OSM tagging is somewhat separate form rendering) 

- mailing lists of different groups. 

- Language pages of the different languages being used in OSM 

it seems to be really problematic to get authoritative information, at least in the boat that I am in, living (and knowing) Japan geographically quite well, but still dependent on english for my daily life (currently). 

The JA wiki ( which is mostly bilingual as well - nice) is helpful, but incomplete or old:

- The Wiki's main Japan project page is a couple years out of date. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Japan

- Naming sample is really helpful - for chain stores. the issues I have are for naming transportation  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Naming_sample

- Tagging features goes into naming features, but the discussion of adding English to the names is only discussed in Japanese, so I had no idea what they were (or are) discussing, and no mention of not putting english in tags being bad is not mentioned anywhere on that page. I assumed it was similarly out of date and the parenthesis were added in as more people were working to clean up and tag the old data imports. 

> But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so).

If every single exit, train station, and hundreds of thousands of road signs are gonna be officially printed bilingual, then there should be a solution in OSM for showing both too, especially in the main rendered map (the JA render specifically for Japan, I have no issues with being Japanese only) 

Unless we want to start getting a lot of blue paint and painting out all the english in all the road signs in Japan. 

I know that sounds inflammatory, but being able to reference the Kanji as an identifier - especially when other private Japanese material (is of course, as expected) printed in Japanese only, being able to match Kanji on the maps to the Japanese only material lets me navigate and understand the places I am going, and the english helps me speak, identify, and learn the locations and associated Kanji. This is why Google Maps "english labels" are useful (you get En + JA) and Apple's is not nearly as useful (EN only). 
This is the reality of the foreigners living in Japan and other places where learning the character set is more difficult than learning their phonetic symbols. I can get by with reading Munich or München, but being able to read  東京 vs 京都 vs 前橋 is quite more difficult than München vs Nürnberg vs Stuttgart, as they are not phonetic. 

For the main transportation system - Tollways & Trains - the english exists for a reason - and that reason is just as valid for it's inclusion (in some database friendly way) into OSM

In a larger context - I find this really interesting - the local signs and whatever are bilingual - but  other people ehre said that this is the policy of using the local language, but getting regional or non-western things added to the main tagging scema - and then supported in rendering is almost impossible without major support from people uninterested in tagging those items - so there is barely anything supported for rendering things in Japan's standard iconography.  For example - The way OSM renders train lines doesn't match the decades long tradition in all printed materials (let alone maps) in Japan referencing the dashed train lines as only for the JR system, while the myriad of other private railways are solid lines. since there is no support for coloring of ways, then there is no way to remove this confusion brought about by OSM's incomplete tagging and rendering system of the entire Japanese train and subway system - because it doesn't conform to the larger "internationally" focused and uniform rendering of the map. Convenient for the tagging system and the rendering, but creates a confusing and inferior map to the Japanese people who would use it. 

I find it very convenient that the solutions to problems changes between "uniformity" and "regional preference" depending on which one would mean less changes to tagging and rendering schemas. 

I will not be using (en) parenthesis going forward, and I hope people who know more than I can implement a rendering solution to let people choose which sublanguage tag they'd also like displayed.

Javbw 

On Sep 13, 2014, at 11:41 PM, Satoshi IIDA <nyampire at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Hello, 
> 
> > johnw
> Japan local community had discussed about that on 2014/03.
> Thread is started here (quite long!)
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/2013-September/007600.html
> 
> Summary is
> * Japan community stop "name = JP (EN)" writing, after 2014/03.
> * Existing "name = JP (EN)" is switched to "name" + "name:ja" + "name:en", by manually.
>   Mechanical edits are not recommended.
> * (But as you know, detecting "name = JP (EN)" is very easy those days by using overpass API.)
> 
> * Most of JP members understand "name = JP (EN)" writing is too bad.
>   But a few insists the bilingual RENDERING on osm.org or on other alternative (apps or tiles or so).
> * Most of JP members also understand "name = JP (EN)" writing would break the database structure.
> 
> * Why "name = JP (EN)" writing is still alive on transport?
>   Only for no mappers is enthusiastic about that. At least yet. :)
>   Switching is happen on Place node by some enthusiastic members (as seemed.)
> 
> As you said, bilingual expression is very important for foreigners.
> It is better that we could get more "name:* specific" tiles or some vector tile to satisfy this needs.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> 
> 
> 2014-09-13 19:59 GMT+09:00 Dave Swarthout <daveswarthout at gmail.com>:
> johnw,
> 
> Let me try to clarify a bit more. In Japan the name tag should contain ONLY the Japanese language name of the feature. If someone wants to add an English version they are free to do that but it should be added in a special tag, i.e., name:en
> 
> That way renderers that wish to show features labeled in English will use the information in the name:en=* tag while others may use the Japanese name from the standard name=* tag. It all depends on the audience the renderer is trying to please. Having a tag with two versions in its value is an error by this reasoning.
> 
> While the person deleting the parenthetical translation is perhaps being a bit impolite by not consulting everyone who has added those extra names, he or she is actually only removing data that is not correct and that will likely cause problems down the line. In addition, if the practice is as widespread as you say, contacting everyone doing this bad tagging is simply too much work.
> 
> As stephan correctly points out, if I were in America I certainly wouldn't appreciate seeing those parenthetical street names in Thai following the English names, even in a predominantly Thai neighborhood. 
> 
> Dave
> 
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, johnw <johnw at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sep 13, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Stephan Knauss <osm at stephans-server.de> wrote:
> 
>> No local mapper wants to read München (Munich) on the map. So why should Japanese or Chinese mappers want to read something on their map?
> 
> - if they were using a Japanese only map, then I can understand, but that would be pulling from the name:ja= tag, right?
> 
> - every single major sign, Street name, Highway exit, Large train station identifying sign, City Building label, etc is labeled in English as well as Japanese. Every single one of the 2000 or so tollway exits are labeled in english, and the hundreds of thousands of blue intersection road signs are also printed bi-lingually as well - as a service to the forigners living there, as mastering reading and understanding all the Kanji for the various place names takes a decade or so of straight practice.  
> 
>  If they sign most everything imaginable that is important in Japanese + English, having it mapped that way too seems reasonable.
> 
> Understanding that this "JA (en)" schema is bad for the database makes sense - but couldn't those also be pulling from the name:*= tags?
> 
> 
> Javbw
> 
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> -- 
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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> Satoshi IIDA
> mail: nyampire at gmail.com
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