[Tagging] Proposed: landuse=civic_admin - looking for comments.

johnw johnw at mac.com
Sat Mar 7 10:00:44 UTC 2015

The previous message was went by accident. Please disregard it. 

now for the correct reply:

Reply summary:

- I will make a better, much more concise definition
- the separation of judicial from legislative/executive are reflected in real-world landuses, which is why I separated them
- judicial can be included in the proposal, and then differentiated by existing tags, if desired.
- an example of the complexes I see can be seen at http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/36.39075/139.06113 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/36.39075/139.06113>


> I didn't find it very clear...

> We should have some easy rules, with no or few exceptions, and hopefully expressable / definable in 1, 2 or max. 3 sentences. There can be more text of course, with examples and explanations (not for stating exceptions), but the general definition should ideally be one sentence.

I will work to create a better, shorter, more straightforward definition.

> Yea, at a national level there is a big legal and physical separation between legislative and executive bodies (White House / Capitol building) - they both have different roles, but together they make the sausage.
> actually the judicial power (supreme court etc.) also is needed to complete the sausage. The proposal unifies executive and legislative, but excludes the judicial part, maybe consciously, but I couldn't find a reasoning.

I purposefully excluded judicial, as it is often separate. Form a legal point of view, AFAIK, Judicial has very little to do with the creation of the sausage - they rule if it is an acceptable sausage if challenged,  if the sausage followed the sausage making rules if challenged, and dole out the punishment for not eating the sausage. I can not think of a way the courts are directly involved in making the laws (in the US) in the way the legislative and executive are *required* to work together in order to create a law.  The High courts are usually there to rule on constitutionality of a law, and lay down new guidelines for creating laws in the future - but they do not draft nor approve laws or create executive orders that are legally binding.  also, the lower courts - which is vast majority of the courthouses we will be mapping - are in the “judging and sentencing” side of the equation - they make nothing - they arbitrate disputes and judge guilt and punishment, almost exclusively.

But this is a legal difference between them, and the finer points of interpretation of laws by the courts influencing drafting and other things could mean we talk about this forever, but I don’t think it is quite necessary, as I’m not using a legal basis for the reason from my split - it is reflected in the real-world landuse already, which is what I’m interested in. 

Speaking purely of what I want to map with landuse=civic_admin - facility grounds - often there are very easily defined buildings (and yes, sometimes landuses as well) that can be easily labeled “executive” or “legislative” - but this is only common at the national level. The majority of “townhall” complexes I have seen in the US and Japan for local and regional (and probably state, in the US)  are mixed - a single named landuse, sometimes  even the same building, serving the executive and legislative branches of the local or regional government.  The people at this complex are tasked with the operations of the city in whatever legal manner the countries laws say. There can be seperate buildings - an assembly building and then an office building with the mayor and clerk and the myriad of governmental offices, and sometimes other civic safety headquarters or civic services (library, police, etc) are present - but the complex is a single complex with a single name (often “city hall”) with differently named buildings or rooms on it.

But there are rarely, if ever, courthouses present. They may be nearby, but all the courthouses I am familiar with are physically separated from the rule makers and rule enforcers (the city hall and the police) to reinforce their political separation by actually separating them. Judicial is the odd-man out in real life, and this is reflected in my landuse definition.  Maybe this is a decision that should be left to the building or amenity tags - but I thought courthouses and their related places (such as the city attorney’s office) feel different and serve a different purpose (arbitration, judgement, and punishment distribution), so they should be excluded. But it can be included, then the grounds or buildings differentiated via the amenity tag or something if necessary. 

A good example of the scenario I’m talking about is my prefectural capital in Japan (for about 2m people). The “Gunma Prefectural Government Office” -  the sign out front for the complex. It is an old regional capital ground redeveloped over and over (maybe a castle was there before?), and in 1999 they added a big 33 story skyscraper and some more facilities to the existing building.

I cleaned up the tagging a bit for this example (though I’m sure you can find many questionable tagging practices if you look around). 


The 5 main buildings in that complex are:

- the legislative assembly building, linked by footbridge to the 

- The Main “Gunma Prefectural Building” (official name) where all executive and administration offices are, filed with useless paperwork stacked 30 stories high as a monument to inefficiency. 

- the old building built after WWII (the “Showa Building”) which still has some offices and useless paperwork, 

- The police regional Headquarters building,

- An Automatic car garage (your car disappears into an elevator)

in the main building:

- A Post Office (in the basement of the main building), for moving useless paperwork everywhere.

- 4 restaurants open to the public on the 31 and 32nd floor, balanced on top of all that crap paperwork. Yes, I have been eating in there when there was a small earthquake ^_^. 

So I have a mix of Legislative, Executive, Service, and safety.   The courthouse is across the street, as expected. The city’s City Hall is nearby, as well as the (separate, in this case) city council offices, as this is the largest city in my prefecture. 

on Mapion: http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/36.39125543,139.0608476,16/poi=21030176200 <http://www.mapion.co.jp/m2/36.39125543,139.0608476,16/poi=21030176200>

This exact scenario plays out across all of Japan, and every US town and city I know of in California,  (San Diego has similar separation of judicial) - and the small cities and towns are even more condensed -  so I assume that the majority of the US towns are this way - and then assume a majority of towns in western Society are this way as well. 

Only at the national level do I expect to have no blurring of landuses, so I’m trying to account for it right from the beginning. 

I thought differentiating between the courthouses and these complexes at a landuse level was a good idea, as I wanted to separate out civic_safety and penal as well, but if you think Judicial should be included in civic_admin, I will add it into the proposal. 


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