[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

Jherome Miguel jheromemiguel at gmail.com
Thu Feb 16 10:48:35 UTC 2017


Okay, okay, RMS and peak are not the same. Now, move on to the main topic,
power poles.

Well, what is called a power pole here in OSM is primarily a wood,
concrete, or steel pole, usually with a cross-arm. But looking deeper in
the real world, power poles have more designs aside from the usual design
with one cross-arm supported by brackets, especially when giving regard to
lines beside roads (as it seems that OSM has its power distribution
infrastructure focused on lines in dedicated right-of-way, which is
primarily found in Europe, but distribution lines is primarily found beside
roads in most of Asia, Oceania, and the Americas). There are poles with two
or more cross-arms supporting multiple circuits, poles with no cross-arm
(insulators are on the pole itself), and poles holding high voltage lines
(usually called subtransmission lines, common in North America, Australia,
and some Asian countries, like the Philippines and Thailand). And do you
agree that poles has other designs aside from the usual design composed of
the pole and cross-arm, if you will refer to personal knowledge of power
lines? And for the design names (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_pole_extension),
is it better to base them on the existing design values at the power tower
page (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power=tower#Tower_designs),
with additional tags, like "armless_asymmetric" and "armless_triangle",
variants of the asymmetric and triangle designs, which is used to refer to
those used with cross-arms, but for the cases mentioned, these have the
insulators placed on the pole instead on cross-arms? And, do the "flag"
design all right to use on a pole with no cross-arms and the insulators
placed on one side of the pole, just like the same description of the same
design on a power=tower?

On Feb 16, 2017 1:03 PM, "Warin" <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:

On 16-Feb-17 01:00 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

The RMS voltage of an alternating-current electrical source is the
direct-current voltage that would supply the same power into a resistive
load. That is to say, imagine you have an AC power source operating a
heating element, and a DC power source operating an identical heating
element. The DC connection powers the heating element continuously. The AC
signal starts at zero volts, increases to a peak, then decreases back to
zero. Then it does that again, to a negative voltage (the electrons flow in
the opposite direction). The heating element doesn't care which direction
the electrons are flowing; both directions produce the same amount of
heat.  If the net heat production from the AC-powered heating element is
the same as the net heat production from the DC-powered element, then the
Root Mean Square voltage of the AC power source is the same as the constant
DC voltage from the DC power source.

Off topic warning.
Johns definition above is correct ..
These are fundamental to any electrical person.
The AC voltage can be stated in various ways .. where the statement of
voltage does not include rms, peak or peak to peak most people would take
the statement as being rms.

>From a simple maths viewpoint:

The relationship of RMS (route mean squared), peak and peak to peak are
very well defined mathematically for a pure sine wave;

peak to peak = peak x 2
RMS = peak x 0.707 (or the reciprocal of the square route of two, if you
need more digits)

Thus 220 v RMS will be 311 v peak and 622 v peak to peak.

220 v RMS single phase voltage system resolves into a 3 phase system of
381 v RMS, as the 220 v is from one line to neutral, where as the 3 phase
voltage is from one line to the other.

Again there is a simple mathematical vector relationship between the single
phase and the 3 phase voltages.


On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:



On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "Fran├žois Lacombe" <fl.infosreseaux at gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com>:

>
> In Australia;
> Heavy industry gets 3 phases.
>

Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry : https://www.google.fr/maps/@45
.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4
!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :
>From public power grid : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.
2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q
!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2a
e4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1
<https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70%218m2%213d45.275403%214d6.344886%216m1%211e1>
To traction substation : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15
y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!
2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4b
aab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1
<https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70%218m2%213d45.275403%214d6.344886%216m1%211e1>


For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large
commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380,
220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz).
Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire
systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which
is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of
the system


Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances encompass
an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.


Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, while
RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?

No. See the above.

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