[Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

Daniel McCormick mccormick at kaartgroup.com
Fri Aug 10 17:38:21 UTC 2018


While Paul makes a Strong argument it appears that we are still placing too much emphasis on the name=* tag. Consider France that has many signs similar to the example that Paul brings up. They have decided to put French in as the name=* and name:xx for the other languages. This fact that a name has a colon and a language designation does not mean it is any less important. Unless you are looking at the default OSM renderer. I contend that the average consumer is not going to be looking directly at the OSM default renderer. They will most likely be using a non-primary outlet/ renderer and having a multilingual name makes things complicated for ALL renderers. 
The goal of OSM is not to create a map that renders great on the default renderer. The goal is to create repository that can be rendered quickly and easily by anyone. The default map is what we primarily interact with and just like anything it has become the lens by which we view our contribution to the map. However, that lens is not the best viewing glass in most situations. When we add multiple languages we are not actually adding anything to data, as long as we are using name:xx=*, but rather are cluttering the existing data and impeding the use of the very data that we spend so much time making better. With the names properly categorized we can create a renderer that does all we want it to in much simpiler fashion then if we are to add multilingual names to the name=* tag. We could even make a renderer that shows multilingual names that sources all of our name:xx tags.
In short while I understand the argument, I would humbly contend that adding any multilingual name the the name=* field is unnecessary and leads to more clutter then clarity and would move to supporting local communities in finding a way to add all the different languages in their proper category.

> On Aug 10, 2018, at 7:30 AM, tagging-request at openstreetmap.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names (Jo)
>   2. Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes (peterkrauss)
>   3. Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes (Paul Allen)
>   4. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>      (Paul Allen)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:33:44 +0200
> From: Jo <winfixit at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
> 	names
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAJ6DwMCecHJ7LDw1=Lih87MesPFyOs5Yj9XfK56WWwOJWLFYGQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> The renderers and ALL data consumers would then have to take that into
> account.
> 
> Tagging for the renderer means: Using a inappropriate tag on an object such
> that it renders in a colour or style the mapper prefers over correctly
> tagging an object.
> 
> Putting 2 names in a name field where those 2 names have equal standing is
> not mapping for the renderer. That is mere pragmatism while mapping, and
> yes, we like to get our stuff rendered. Outsiders should already be glad we
> were able to agree on a consistent ordering for those names. The normal
> Belgian compromise for resolving this would be: make sure that fr - nl and
> nl - fr are equally distributed in name tags, at all times...
> 
> The reason for not choosing Brussel/Bruxelles is that Brussel - Bruxelles
> clearly shows that there are 2 names in there. Instead of one long glued
> together string of characters. And of course, there are place names which
> have - in them, Sint-Agatha-Berchem - Berchem-Sainte-Agathe, for example.
> (When I write them, I put nl first, obviously, that's my first language,
> and incidentally also the language that place was known as, until maybe 200
> years ago, before it became officially bilingual)
> 
> Polyglot
> 
> Op vr 10 aug. 2018 om 12:12 schreef SelfishSeahorse <
> selfishseahorse at gmail.com>:
> 
>> Maybe a possible solution to get rid of name=* tags containing names
>> in multiple languages would be to add the information about which
>> languages are spoken in a particular region to its boundary relation
>> (e.g. spoken_languages=de;fr to the municipality boundary of
>> Biel/Bienne). However, the renderers would then have to take these
>> relations into account.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Markus
>> 
>> On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 at 13:25, Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ]
>>>>> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
>>>> 
>>>> That can be a sign that something is amiss.
>>> 
>>> the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
>>> to do something on carto-css for osm.org
>>> We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
>>> that problem at all.
>>> 
>>> As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
>>> announces the name field and not name:nl
>>> Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
>>> of the two depending on preference or situation.
>>> 
>>> As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
>>> name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
>>> what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
>>> name:xx fields.
>>> Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
>>> (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
>>> maker.
>>> 
>>> All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
>>> addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
>>> someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.
>>> 
>>> m.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 10:01:49 -0300
> From: peterkrauss <peter at openstreetmap.com.br>
> To: "Eric H. Christensen" <eric at aehe.us>, "Tag discussion, strategy
> 	and related tools" <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes
> Message-ID: <92c5c31b078475c256ff04f0c8e65871 at openstreetmap.com.br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> 
> 1 up.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> Well,
> 
> * can anyone (as I) to vote? I am a database OSM user/developer (PostGIS 
> etc), not an experienced mapper.
> 
> * there are here an "e-mail-vote protocol" to say +1 / -1 /  
> abstention... ?
> 
> 
> Em 2018-08-09 12:57, Eric H. Christensen escreveu:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> I'm opening up my Evacuation Routes proposal[0] for voting. I think
>> we've had two good sessions of discussions for ironing out the bugs
>> and it's time to get this thing out the door!
>> 
>> [0] 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Eric
>> 
>> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>> Comment: https://protonmail.com
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>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> 
> -- 
> Peter Krauss
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:07:02 +0100
> From: Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com>
> To: peter at openstreetmap.com.br,  "Tag discussion, strategy and related
> 	tools" <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAPy1dOJ-5_LvJ_oKrMrg_y5fssxtPKR8KNxG18GQfyM5mmSeyA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:01 PM, peterkrauss <peter at openstreetmap.com.br>
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> * can anyone (as I) to vote?
> 
> 
> Have you registered as a user of the OSM Wiki?  Voting is a matter of
> editing the proposal page to add your vote.
> 
> 
>> I am a database OSM user/developer (PostGIS etc), not an experienced
>> mapper.
> 
> 
> If you don't already have an OSM Wiki account you can probably figure out
> how to create one. :)
> 
> -- 
> Paul
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:29:54 +0100
> From: Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
> 	names
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAPy1dOLL4WHVNBRoZJ9+dJkTjb0dv_xqDkZP-t=XNXjvruHyfQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On 10. Aug 2018, at 00:42, Daniel McCormick <mccormick at kaartgroup.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> While the default renderer favors name=* over name:nl or name:fr that is
>> not the case for other renderers. We as contributors might think that is
>> the most prominent way to view the data but not all renderers are the same.
>> Having our data be specific in saying this is the French name, this is the
>> Flemish name and this is the German name gives the data more flexibility
>> than just having all languages thrown into one name=* field.
>> 
>> nobody questions the usefulness of name:language tags, the question is
>> only what, if anything, to put in the name tag in multilingual areas (and
>> also this is a term which can describe a lot of different realities, which
>> not necessarily have to be treated all the same).
>> 
> 
> Two things.
> 
> 1) It is said to be standard practice to render what is observable on the
> ground.  A minute's walk from where I live is
> a street sign that says:
> 
> Heol Napier
> Napier Street
> 
> That is what I observe.  See
> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0857064,-4.6583686,3a,15.4y,86.99h,96.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQGH0BhhjxXX2ctr-1NxmOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> I don't need to know which languages are spoken in this region, or what
> language(s) the sign is in, that is what the
> sign SAYS and that is what should be mapped (in my opinion).
> 
> 2)  Ordinary consumers (people looking at OSM and trying to figure out
> where they are) need to know what signs
> SAY.  Presenting them with half the information increases the cognitive
> load on somebody trying to figure out
> where they are when GPS is not very accurate.  If they are unfamiliar with
> the languages involved then "Heol Napier
> Napier Street" may not be the same as "Napier Street" but a separate entity
> (perhaps its a side street branching off
> Napier Street).
> 
> As it happens, I know that Heol Napier is the Welsh name of the street and
> Napier Street is the English name, but not
> everyone consuming the data will know (or want to know) that.  They are
> more likely to be concerned with
> confirming that they are where they think they are.  Having name:cy and
> name:en will perhaps permit vector
> maps to display names in a language of choice, but lacking that name=*
> should (in my opinion) show what is
> actually there.  Anything else is perverse.
> 
> As another matter, Wikipedia has an OSM-derived project that translates all
> names into as many languages as possible.
> I'm not sure this is useful.  This might make sense for the tag info that
> comes back from a query, such as the Chinese for
> "addr:street" but not so much for the name of the street itself (which is
> almost always the equivalent of an
> arbitrary label).  I'd say that for actual names, transliterations would be
> useful but translations would not (if you're
> asking a local and know the local language for "Where is" and can pronounce
> the name then that is more useful than
> knowing what the name means in your own language.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
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