[Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Tue Oct 9 02:56:15 UTC 2018


Javbw,
Thanks for the detailed discussion.
I think I agree with you that "take-and-bake" places are a type of
restaurant or fast-food; that's how they are being tagged in the USA.

What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in
developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?

Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food
items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience,
shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I don't think shop=food is a good idea, but I do think there are shops that
sell groceries but do not really fit in any of those 4 existing categories.
The other option would be to use shop=general for small groceries, because
many of them also sell other nonperishable items, similar to a rural
general store/shop.
But that might lead to some confusion too, and it wouldn't work well for a
shop that specializes in selling Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean
foods, as found in some big cities.

Joseph

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:28 AM John Willis <johnw at mac.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> shop=food
>
>
> + cuisine=local/polish.
>
>
>
> -1
>
> shop=food is called a market. we have that already.  cuisine=* is for
> restaurants and other non-shop places.
>
>
> amenity=fast_food
> fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only,
> etc)
> cuisine=perogi
>
>
> TL;DR:
>
> - make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for
> freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. **
>
>
> - Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts
> the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is
> selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think
> it is a shop.
>
> - don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses
> of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key,
> and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a
> take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet
> uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop
> selling cooked pizza.
>
> - People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or
> amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it
> (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated.
>
> - being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten
> now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket,
> butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream)  will solve both of the above
> issues.
>
> - not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this
> issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food
> and immense tagging pollution through confusion.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag,
> and not to mix shop=* and cuisine  for the job. We have have fast food,
> restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a
> sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop.
>
>
> make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items,
> otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging
> for an ice cream shop:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=ice_cream>
>
> "A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”
>
>
> and now there is
>
>  shop=ice_cream   "For places selling ice cream to take home”
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dice_cream
>
> or
>
> amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where
> ice cream drinks are sold?)
>
> or
>
> amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for
> amenity=ice_cream)
>
>
> There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people
> sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream
> treats at booths and tables.
>
> If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” -
> that is because it *is* a type of restaurant.
>
> They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream
> restaturant.
>
> amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t
> need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely
> the “cuisine” offered.
>
> Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in
> a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces
> amenity=ice_cream)
>
> a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced
> ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at
> home (eg: brewing_supply).
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages
>
> ****all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you
> ingredients to make other things.****
>
> Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the
> coffee shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary
> purpose - not brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in
> Japan would easily be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of
> prepared food for quick meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves
> or bags of rolls to make dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the
> focus of the place. I consider this an error in using the shop=key.
>
> I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag.
>
> *We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very
> reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved.
>
> A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops.
>
> I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a
> good example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can
> be fixed and be much more flexible using generic tags.
>
> We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly
> affects how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible
> to tag actual “shops” - a “meat shop" (butcher) is possible because we use
> other tags to define where meat is consumed as food.
>
> There are some types of places where putting the type of "food" in the
> cuisine= tag would be silly -
>
> - a tea shop sells loose tea in bags and other items for brewing tea, it
> is not a cafe.
>
> - a honey shop sells jars of honey and various derived products, it is not
> “prepared food” nor a cafe selling drinks made with honey.
>
> These are appropriate to be a shop=* tag (shop=tea, shop=honey).
>
> This separates it from cuisine=* - because that is for places that serve
> ready to eat food.
>
> We already have vends= and produces= and other similar tags. if you want
> to use an existing one or make a new one to use with a [[  shop=[thing] +
> foo=[thing type]   ]] tag scheme, then =food is a bad value, and paring it
> with cuisine=* is worse, as it mixes the idea of food and cuisine into the
> shop key, which will lead to confusion and problems.
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
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