[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Toll Gantry

Jonathon McClung jonathon at kaartgroup.com
Wed Sep 19 21:23:35 UTC 2018


	Jérôme,
	
	That email seems to be covering a lot of issues that the proposal is not trying solve, nor could it solve without first laying the foundation that it attempts to set. I’ll narrow in on the thoughts that are most pertinent. You stated; “In fact, this is a problem with software solution not a tag.” This is most definitely an issue with the tag and not a software issue. The tag barrier=toll_booth is currently not specific. In fact, when it is used in the case of a non-barrier electronic toll gantry, it is misleading. In its relation to routing software there is currently no standard way to tell the routing software that this “toll booth” is not a barrier. The advantage of using the key highway is that it is clear that there is no barrier. 
	“My 2 cents comment is in relation with toll because i have an rfid badge and I don't wait a minute. I just slow down to 30km/h to cross the toll booth.” A gantry like this is exactly what we are talking about. The most modern ones do not require the driver to slow down at all. We are not trying to solve every type of problem, we are trying to establish a base and build off of it. 
	“For information barrier <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:barrier>=lift_gate <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dlift_gate> and fee <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee>=yes <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fee%3Dyes> can be set on paint and barrier=toll_booth <> can be a polygon with intersection on your highway.” It is a common, but incorrect process to draw polygons over ways. Most validators will alert you to let you know that you should not do this. This solution stays within the bounds of best practice.
	Another thought you mentioned, "I think it's better solution to set toll_booth in highway because it's specific.”  We also examined this option, but the difference is that this is not a booth.
	The picture you provided helpfully showed us what you are referring to. However, it is not what we are referring to. We are talking about the increasingly common worldwide appearance of the toll gantries on their own. Example pictures can be found here <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry#Examples>. 
	The last six sentences of the email seem to be advocating for making the process more complicated. I am well aware that the tag gantry was proposed, though the page does not indicate whether or not it was ever approved or not.
	

-- 
Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonathon at kaartgroup.com 


> On Sep 19, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Jérôme Seigneuret <jerome.seigneuret at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In fact, this is a problem with software solution not a tag. the interpretation is a toll access need to wait a part of time. But if you have badge access you don't wait... and if there is lot of traffic you are depandent of traffic... waiting time is not for me an argument and a limitation caused by existing key value but just the interpretation. My 2 cents comment is in relation with toll because i have an rfid badge and I don't wait a minute. I just slow down to 30km/h to cross the toll booth.
> 
> problem is on micro-mapping schema and specifing object with speed crossing badge, crossing with credit card, crossing with money...
> 
> That same problem with traffic transport. If you pocess an abonment you can save time, more than else if it payed with CD and more than other if it payed with money.
> 
> An other work is the number of rapid access because if there only one speed toll an lot of traffic you need wait a time anyway.
> 
> In my opinion, the best solution is on number of rapid access toll vs classic access in same solution of parking numbers of places for specific condition.
> 
> for information barrier <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:barrier>=lift_gate <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dlift_gate> and fee <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee>=yes <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fee%3Dyes> can be set on paint and barrier=toll_booth <> can be a polygon with intersection on your highway.
> 
> In fact the problem is only an parent key of toll because it's assimilate to a barrier but this is just an obligatory access point for users
> I think it's better solution to set toll_booth in highway because it's specific
> In railway you payed with resevation on railway track between to point A to B on time. Did you learn about toll_booth <> on railway???
> historically  there is also barrier=entrance but you can understand in this case there is no physical object. so barrier or not??? That same with barrier=no Isn't it?
> 
> Other problem are using lift_gate and toll_booth with same point... that schema is problematic.
> 
> Can you proposed solution with twice type access
> 
> exemple for french access to A709 in France
> http://montrajet.deplacement-a9.fr/uploads/images//point-44/picto-7-barriere-de-peage-baillargues.jpg <http://montrajet.deplacement-a9.fr/uploads/images//point-44/picto-7-barriere-de-peage-baillargues.jpg>
> you can see 1 rapid access right and left
> in opposite direction there is 3 speed access left (for vehicule with specifi maxheight) and 2 speed access on right (for increase traffic speed for hgv)
> 
> that is just my reflection on toll_booth. 
> 
> For you proposed key, I think you can cut element in twice
> 
> highway=grantry+toll=yes and add you speed conditon or stop conditon and it respond to your case.
> grantry is also a proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gantry <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gantry>
> 
> you can set all you need on point in intersection with gantry
> 
> gantry can be also use for direction information or message with electronic information
> 
> The problem, and I think you understand where I want go, would be on combination of information on object in same position.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 19:33, Jonathon McClung <jonathon at kaartgroup.com <mailto:jonathon at kaartgroup.com>> a écrit :
> 	The issue is mostly with how the current standard (as stated here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dtoll_booth <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier=toll_booth>) impacts routing. This is said on the proposal page here "Many current routing softwares add a delay to trip time when encountering the tag barrier <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:barrier>=toll_booth <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dtoll_booth>. However, the delay on these more modern toll collection systems is significantly less; not requiring the driver to stop in most cases. In effect, this means that many drivers will be routed onto a slower route.” This is the major difference. Of course the way itself should be tagged toll=yes. This is a clean way to a) show where the toll begins and b) give the routing software something to account for on the way. 
> 
> 	At the end of your email you talk about alternate names. We discussed many names, but ultimately landed on toll_gantry because the meaning of the word toll is immediately apparent. The term gantry was chosen because it’s meaning is specific and less ambiguous than “toll bridge" the other common name for these fixtures. Much of this is discussed on the proposal’s page <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry> and discussion page <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry#How_does_this_differ_from_barrier.3Dtoll_booth.3F>. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonathon at kaartgroup.com <mailto:jonathon at kaartgroup.com> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 19, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Jérôme Seigneuret <jerome.seigneuret at gmail.com <mailto:jerome.seigneuret at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't really understand the difference
>> 
>> toll_both is a vending machine (or human) with lift gate barrier.  It is just an other type of object because in other case you can set really the gantry as line and set on point type camera or other information object.
>> 
>> camera as set in relation there is an other subject in France "Ecotaxe gantry" 
>> 
>> highway can be set with fee=yes if this is just that you wan't
>> 
>> there is also speed tall access with RFID toll badge  ("Télépéage" for frenchies) 
>> 
>> in other way if it's a camera you can set camera type 
>> there is speed_camera why not  simply highway=atc_camera
>> 
>> I think this is only in relation with highway. Isn't It?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Le mer. 19 sept. 2018 à 17:55, Jonathon McClung <jonathon at kaartgroup.com <mailto:jonathon at kaartgroup.com>> a écrit :
>> 	Hello OSM Tagging List!
>> 
>> 	Two weeks have come and gone and now the proposal for highway=toll_gantry is up for vote!
>>  
>> 	Please visit https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry> and cast your vote. If you missed this proposal the first time, still have concerns, or still have questions, please join the discussion. Otherwise, we look forward to seeing your votes!
>> 
>> 	Thanks!
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonathon at kaartgroup.com <mailto:jonathon at kaartgroup.com> 
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>> 
>> -- 
>> Cordialement,
>> Jérôme Seigneuret
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> -- 
> Cordialement,
> Jérôme Seigneuret
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