[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Refilling a purchased drink

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Sat Sep 29 15:28:38 UTC 2018


I've sliced part of the drinking proposal to a new page. I've copied
the related comments.

So the question here is what would be the most efficient, most
intuitive way to tag places where you can refill your drink for free
(or for a discounted price?) after having purchased the first glass.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refilling_a_purchased_drink

Some of the earlier related e-mails can be found under this thread:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-September/039164.html


Let me reply to the last question inline here:

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:28 AM Tom Pfeifer <t.pfeifer at computer.org> wrote:
> (with cheaply produced unhealthy liquids anyway).
>

Well, the chosen drink could be as healthy as 100% fruit juice.
Although, if one is against the practice of refills, mapping these
could come in handy for those who want to campaign against it as well
to organize demonstrations.

> This is close to a restaurant review and
> not a geographical property.
>

The reason why we do not map more properties found in restaurant
reviews is that they fail the verifiability criterion due to
subjectivity or variability. This is why we do not map how "big" or
"delicious" the served meals or sandwiches are, how "spacious",
"crowded" or "clean" a place is, or how "organized", "friendly" or
"fast" table service is.

However, it is perfectly objective whether food is being served at all
(food=*), whether they serve ice cream, burgers or pizza (cuisine=*),
if air conditioning is installed or whether the purchased drinks are
eligible for refill. Verifying these is as simple as looking at the
website, menu or asking the staff and they will give a definite
answer. If you have recently moved to a town, or would like to try out
new places, it is very useful to be able to filter for places offering
carom billiards for example. Buffet lunch and refillable drinks are
feats that people also tend to look for as a novelty, thus it adds
value to be searchable. There exist websites on which you can search
for pubs offering given types of beers or serving breweries if you are
into this kind of thing.

There is nothing geographical about opening hours either, but users
see great value in it, and thus we map it. Compared to the
competition, OSM has the huge advantage of being extensible and being
usable offline. It adds value if we can navigate using a
self-contained database (think contact information). This does not
mean that OpenStreetMap should contain every single piece of
information in the world - we can link to Wikipedia/Wikidata for that.
However, if it sounds reasonable to visualize or search for a location
based on given criteria for a reasonable percentage of users, it
deserves to be mapped. Given such map extracts, business owners can
make decisions to open new venues or change practices at different
localities, tourists can use a reliable, unbiased guide to aid their
trip and stops, open minded locals or those skipping a train can
quickly get informed about new or interesting places to try.

And there's extensibility - the competition only maps for a subset of
highly profitable groups, like western automobile drivers with given
habits, while we can map for everyone. If there exists demand for a
given reasonable map use, we can cover it. Despite only appealing to a
niche, many are mapping using simple 3D tags, because they can.

Also, OSM is all about the community - if a given property has the
potential to increase community engagement, it should be especially
promoted in order to help grow the community itself. For example,
mapping those who welcome freeloaders is a win-win-win situation: the
amenities can see more traffic, passer-by can reduce their thirst and
mapping and actualizing of the amenities themselves can happen by yet
another group of volunteers.

> I am strongly against tagging the business practice how often a _paid_ glass of
> beverage is being refilled
>

Could you please clarify what policy this would violate that makes you
disapprove?

> It does not need much language either, handing the bottle and
> and a friendly look are usually self-explanatory and sufficient.
> I would support tagging the free tap-water refilling campaign as it is apparently a litter-avoiding
> idea and presumably ground-verifiable
>

The owncup=* campaign sounds like an idea to combat waste as well.
However, if a shop is part of both owncup & water-refill campaigns at
the same time, handing over your bottle may result in unwanted
consequences like getting beer in it!

So you vote for the possibility that no extra tag/description should
be added along `drinking_water=yes` (instead of =ask/on_demand) to
indicate that staff is handing out water on request and not a vending
machine/tap?

> (by some sticker or so at the door?).
>

It is definitely verifiable as all of these venues have staff that was
instructed by management to serve water to all, so asking any of them
should yield a unified answer. Some of the dozens of campaigns listed
have printable stickers, but note that they should all be different.

The best visibility for both venues and people should be via OSM
itself. However, if we do not highlight these via specific tags, this
visibility may be impaired. Renderers could be enhanced to highlight
various tag combinations, like drinking_water on bars, restaurants,
etc., though that is not ideal. Verification could also be made more
difficult, because if I see drinking_water=yes on a pub, I need to
first start looking for a vending machine/fountain/tap, if not found,
ask for an accessible vending machine/fountain/tap from staff, if they
don't know anything about those, then I ask whether they could
manually refill my container. This sounds a bit more awkward than
ideal.

> As a side note, I am surprised it needs such a campaign. I was never refused a filling of my water
> bottle, in various countries. Not in a pub while hiking, nor in an airport cafe (behind security
> where carrying water is not allowed).
> tom
>

Although nobody would deny you a glass of water on a hot summer day if
you were dangerously dehydrated, not every restaurant would like to
degrade their atmosphere to a pass-through house by lines of
freeloaders if they are situated at a busy location. Those who
volunteer to join such a campaign anticipate this traffic and educate
their staff to welcome all passer-by as a matter of business.



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