[Tagging] Values in namespaces/prefixes/suffixes Considered Harmful - Or: Stop over-namespacing and prefix-fooling

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Mon Jan 7 01:23:25 UTC 2019


On 07/01/19 10:27, Stefan Keller wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After an answer by Rtfm/ti-lo at namespace wiki page [1] (thanks!) I
> have to add some thoughts, especially regarding the multiple values!
>
> Initially I thought it's just about namespaces which I'm calling
> "prefix-fooling" or pseudo-boolean-namespaces. "Pseudo" because users
> start adding other values to yes/no like yes/no/maybe.
>
> My main concern with prefix-fooling or pseudo-boolean-namespaces is
> not against namespaces in principle. But this "new-style" tagging has
> a strong tendency to defragment OSM and to loose a sense of
> reusability. I've listed several problems above. See e.g. "Shop
> subtags proposal" [2] as a negative example well because it's key
> fragmentation in the form
> "<anyshop_or_service>:<WhateverValue>=yes/no". Looking at the example
> in [2]:
>
> Now I realize, that there are three fundamental questions behind this
> "new-style" tagging:
>
> First it's about how to describe objects which contain two 'top-level'
> tags, like shop=bicycle and shop=motorcycle (see rationale on [2]). We
> have had this issue with businesses for long time on how to combine
> e.g. restaurant, bar, hotel, bakery etc.. => IMO I'd handle this as
> separate POIs as long as possible.

I would like to see the same system used for these features that sell things, rather than have each business develop tags that are incompatible.

For example https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service has 2 different methods .. depending on which shop your detailing ... Why?

I would think a set of common tags for all shops and similar features that can use them, should be developed and then any other tags depreciated.


>
> Second, it's about grouping subtags: Namespaces are an attempt to
> this. But this is aka redundant to curated presets...
>
> The third and to me most important issue is about handling multiple
> values [5]! Multiple values are undoubtedly a data modeling
> requirement. They have been handled so far nolens-volens by the
> semi-colon value separator [6] - now with a trend to pseudo-boolean
> namespaces. Admittedly, processing semi-colon separated fields is
> complex and only few SW can process it. I suspect the reason behind is
> it's that multiple values are't handled by programming languages out
> of the box (databases like Postgres support that not only as data
> types but also in queries).
>
> Just recently the iD Editor maintainer added more multiCombo functions
> (like [3]) and presets key (like "service:vehicle" [4]). Both is OK
> per se, but the latter preset was undocumented on the Wiki, and
> obviously the iD Editor maintainer prefers namespaces over semicolons
> for handling multiple values - and both issues seem to be completely
> undiscussed!
>
> => So I urgently propose to discuss and sort of out this multiple
> values, respectively "semi-colon vs. pseudo-boolean-namespaces" issue!
>
> :Stefan
>
> P.S. I'm now tending to accept new-style boolean-namespaces - but only
> under certain conditions. These conditions start with the usual ones
> (see the proposal process) complemented perhaps by the following:
> * Is it just about grouping? If yes, obstain from namespaces and look
> at presets and document it rather in the wiki.
> * Can the proposed key be re-used with/by other objects? If yes,
> obstain from (over-specific) namespaces and try to choose a more
> common or generic and simple key-value tag.
> * Is the proposed key namespace in Mixed Case? If yes, this is a
> strong smell indicating that it's a value. So choose a more common or
> generic and simple key should.
> * (See also the six "consequences of prefix-fooling" in my mail above).
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Namespace#Over-namespacing_and_Prefix-fooling
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop_subtags
> [3] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/5291
> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service:vehicle
> [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multiple_values
> [6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator
>
>
> Am Sa., 5. Jan. 2019 um 16:42 Uhr schrieb Markus <selfishseahorse at gmail.com>:
>> On Thu, 27 Dec 2018 at 02:05, Stefan Keller <sfkeller at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's really turning processing of key-values (or key-value pairs KVP,
>>> entity-attribute-values EAV, dictionnaries, associative arrays, map
>>> collections, Hash stores/hstores) ad absurdum. In addition to the
>>> troubles of over-namespacing mentioned above there are following
>>> consequences of prefix-fooling - among others (sticking at the example
>>> "service:bicycle:retail=yes;service:bicycle:repair=yes;"):
>>>
>>> * Existing code to validate and cleanup values is in vain: One can't
>>> check with usual functions if a value is in range
>>> "retail,repair,second_hand".
>>> * Existing code to match is in vain too: Prefix-fooled keys pretend to
>>> have mixed cases (which they should'nt).
>>> * Worse, users still extend "yes/no" values to arbitrary values (which
>>> again makes processing unnecessarily complicated).
>>> * Even worse, users are encouraged to invent new sparsely used keys
>>> (which we can't prevent, but it's less harmful in the values).
>>> * Source code is flooded by boolean expressions (which would else be a
>>> single function) and need to be predefined in the code (instead of
>>> being put in values).
>>> * Values in namespaces/prefixes/suffixes are hard or impossible to
>>> search, match, count or group in computer languages, including SQL.
>> I'm a bit late but thank you, Stefan, for your explanation!
>>
>> Regards, Markus





More information about the Tagging mailing list