[Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

muralito at montevideo.com.uy muralito at montevideo.com.uy
Mon Aug 3 16:59:10 UTC 2020


Hi,

----- Mensaje original -----
> De: "frederik" <frederik at remote.org>
> Para: tagging at openstreetmap.org
> Enviados: Viernes, 31 de Julio 2020 19:16:50
> Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

> Hi,
> 
> I don't know the region myself so I am limited to anecdotal evidence as
> found on the web:
> 
> * Montevideo clearly brands itself as having "a coast" (from
> welcomeuruguay.com: "Costa de Oro" (Gold Coast) is the name given to the
> great variety of beaches stretching from La Barra de Carrasco, in
> Montevideo, to Solís Grande Creek, ...)
> 
> * next city east is called "Ciudad de la Costa"
> 
> * Buenos Aires, on the other hand, seems to be mainly referred to as
> being "on the SHORE of Rio de la Plata"
> 
> * Wikipedia entry on Montevideo calls Rio de la Plata an "arm of the
> Atlantic ocean"
> 
> It is obvious that, regarding the official definition, both countries
> have a shared interest of defining the coast as far out on the sea as
> legally possible. Therefore, I am not sure if our usual approach of
> "letting the locals decide" will work here. Our other usual approach is
> that of "truth on the ground" and the 200km+ straight line from Punte
> del Este to Cabo San Antonio certainly stretches *anybody's* definiotion
> of a coastline!
> 
> The largest estuary in the United States, Chesapeake Bay, is almost
> completely mapped as coastline, only changing to a natural=river polygon
> very far inland - though I haven't researched currents or salinity.
> 
> Are there other examples of large bays/estuaries?
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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As with any terms in OSM context, we should'nt literaly translate the terms betwen languages because we can incurr in errors. Sometimes also between dialects of the same language the same word have different meanings. In this case, "coastline" should'nt be translated to spanish as "costa". Acording to RAE.es (official institution for the spanish language), it defines "costa" as "Orilla del mar, de un río, de un lago, etc., y tierra que está cerca de ella". Translated, in spanish "costa" does not mean only seashore ("Orilla de mar"), it could be a river bank ("Orilla de río"), lake shore ("Orilla de lago". So that any city or comunity defines itself as "costa" or "costera", or "SHORE" or any other term, is not related to the OSM coastline definition. It is also different from the definition of "coast" from Oxford Dictionary (6th edition that i have in hand), which refers to the land besides the ocean or the sea.

In some cases, like this, the wikipedia article lacks the accuracy to define river. The river starts in Paralelo Hito Punta Gorda and ends in the line between Punta del Este and Punta Rasa.

Here in Uruguay we have two "coast", the oceanic coast (natural=coastline) which begins in Punta del Este and goes to the border with Brazil.
The other "coast" is the river, which is why Montevideo, Buenos Aires, etc, are known as "ciudad ribereña" (riverside city).
The oceanic coast in the Argentina side, also starts in Punta Rasa. Those two different coast are very different
All this facts are clearly visible and verifiable being here. Just like other thing they are not visible in aerial imagery [3]. 

The motivation to not map as coastline are not political, but technical. The political issues were solved at least 60 years ago, with scientific consensus. [1][2]
There is no other place where the coastline could be placed. There has been, and there is wide consensus in both local communities (i cannot say absolute consensus without checking). The limit of Rio de la Plata is historically recognized by politics and scientists. The legal, or official definition is settled at least 60 years ago, by political means (binational protocols, UN international treaty, IHO definitions), y scientific studies. Also newer/modern scientific studies and papers, based on salinity, batimetry, water flows, sediments, mathematical models, etc. confirms what the old scientific studies and political have agreed that the limit of the ocean is between Punta del Este and Punta Rasa, so there should be no discussion here.
Besides this, in 2016 the UN extended the sovereignty rights of Uruguay in the continental platform for 350 nautical miles [11], but this is another issue and is not mapped yet. And speaking about politics, both navies pursues industrial fishing pirates, mostly from Asia. 

This is just a very width river, with a basin size like India, or 10 times Germany, it obviously brings a very large amount o fresh water, which influences the salinity of the ocean waters several tenths of km inner into the ocean from Punta Rasa or Punta del Este.

According to some people, mapping the coastline where I think where it should be, and where it was since the river was mapped at least 6 years ago, that kind of mapping, maybe some renders create artifacts because they consider this as inner water and not ocean. I see no problem in that, because in the aerial photo [3] the colour of the river is like any other river, and not like an ocean.
For example, i linked two videos showing the clearly the difference between Rio de la Plata and Atlantic Ocean [9][10] 

If you choose to map this riverbank as coastline, is just mapping for convenience (for convenience of the renderer), to see the world map as you prefer to see it, but it is not modelling the world as it is.

By the way, the problem in january 2020 with the rendering toolchain fails were not caused for moving the coastline to the ocean/river limit, as it was there for several years, but were caused by a changeset which changed the tagging of the riverbank as coastline. 

Regards,
M.



[1] UN: Treaty between Uruguay and Argentina concerning the Rio de la Plata and the Corresponding Maritime Boundary 19 November 1973 https://www.un.org/depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFILES/TREATIES/URY-ARG1973MB.PDF
[2] IHO: https://iho.int/uploads/user/pubs/standards/s-23/S-23_Ed3_1953_EN.pdf
[3]Photo: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata#/media/Archivo:River_Plate.jpg

[4] CARP: Tratado del Rio de la Plata y su Frente Marítimo https://www.comisionriodelaplata.org/archivos/documentos/TratadodelRiodelaPlataysuFrenteMaritimo.pdf
[5] CARP: Declaracion conjunta https://www.comisionriodelaplata.org/archivos/documentos/declaracion_conjunta_sobre_el_limite_exterior_del_rio_de_la_plata.pdf
[6] CARP: sedimentos, salinidad, mareas, batimetria https://www.comisionriodelaplata.org/archivos/docs_pdf/Estudio-de-la-din%C3%A1mica-hidro-sedimentol%C3%B3gica-del-R%C3%ADo-de-la-Plata.pdf
[7] CARP: Protocolo del Rio de la Plata de Enero de 1964 https://www.comisionriodelaplata.org/archivos/documentos/Protocolo_del_Rio_de_La_Plata_ID11970.pdf
 "
 
[8] DINAMA. Salinidad https://www.dinama.gub.uy/oan/documentos/uploads/2016/12/patrones_circulacion.pdf

[9] video showing the difference river/ocean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogC9cJklKQk
[10] video showing the difference river/ocean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErWPsS8hP4w

[11] https://www.presidencia.gub.uy/comunicacion/comunicacionnoticias/onu-extension-plataforma-maritima-uruguay-nin-novoa



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