[Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Wed Aug 5 22:46:06 UTC 2020


Here's another issue I would like muralito at montevideo.com.uy to address:

In Venezuela the second largest city is on a body of water called "Lago de
Maracaibo":

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11334852

As mentioned in Wikipedia, local Venezolanos often refer to this as a lake
(lago), not an estuary or bay:

*Lake Maracaibo* (Spanish
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language>: *Lago
de Maracaibo*, pronounced [ˈlaɣo ðe maɾaˈkajβo]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Spanish> ([image: About this sound]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ES-pe_-_Lago_de_Maracaibo.ogg>listen
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/ES-pe_-_Lago_de_Maracaibo.ogg>
)) is a large brackish <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackish> tidal bay
(or tidal estuary <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary>) in Venezuela
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela> and an "inlet of the Caribbean Sea
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Sea>".[1]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-1>[2]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-2>[3]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-3>[4]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-4> It is sometimes
considered a lake <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake> rather than a bay
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay> or lagoon
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagoon>.[5]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-Murphy-5>[6]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-NASA-6>[7]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-Limnol-7>[8]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-Publishing2010-8>[9]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-QuinnWoodward2015-9>
[10] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-10>[11]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-11>[12]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-12>[13]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo#cite_note-13> It is connected
to the Gulf of Venezuela <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Venezuela>
 by Tablazo Strait <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablazo_Strait>, which is
5.5 kilometres (3.4 mi) wide at the northern end.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Maracaibo

So, does this mean that Lago de Maracaibo could be mapped as natural=water
or waterway=riverbank instead, if local mappers feel it is a lake rather
than a tidal bay / estuary?

(It is currently mapped with natural=coastline and with a relation tagged
as natural=bay, like most other similar features in OpenStreetMap, with the
exception of the Rio de la Plata)

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:52 AM Alan Mackie <aamackie at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 01:34, <muralito at montevideo.com.uy> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Mensaje original -----
>> > De: "Joseph Eisenberg" <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
>> > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <
tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>> > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:56:31
>> > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war
>>
>> > The graphics in this document are mainly models of current flow,
rather than
>> > actual measurements, but it is mentioned that the average current flow,
>> > neglecting wind, is only 0.1 m/s in the Rio de la Plata. Since winds
of 5 m/s
>> > are routine according to the paper, the currents vary strongly based
on winds
>> > and tides.
>> > See for example the figura on pages 26 to 37 which show the modeled
variation
>> > with different wind direction. I don't see a modeling of the affect of
tides -
>> > this appears to be the average current over the tidal cycle? But I
admit I have
>> > not visited this area.
>>
>> Sure its a model, but the model is validated by drifting bouys, as you
can check in page 37.
>> i just translated here.
>> "The drift buoy trajectories launched in the summer of 2003 and reported
by Piola et al (2003) showed, in consistency with the modeled solutions,
relatively low average speeds (20-30 cm / s) in the middle part of the
river and higher speeds in the outer sector, mainly towards the Uruguayan
coast, where they exceeded 60 cm / s (Fig. 33)."
>>
>> > My main objection is the inclusion of Bahia Samborombon in the
estuary. The
>> > charts and satellite images show very little influence from river
water in that
>> > area, as well as in the section of coast east of Montevideo.
>>
>> You are misreading the imagery. What generaly available imagery shows in
this area is a change of colour, which is dark brown to the NW, and more
clear to the SE. This is caused for the change of turbidity, located near
the 5m isobath.
>>
> The figures in both the document linked by muralito and the one
previously linked by Andy seem to show that flow outside of the line from
Montevideo to Punta Piedras is largely dominated by wind and ocean
conditions and not by the river flow. Visible sediment in the water was
discounted earlier for defining outer limits as it often persists far into
areas clearly considered ocean (see Christoph's example off the coast of
China), but photos showing the sediment also show it starting to disperse
after this point. Some wind directions seem to dominate the flow even
further upstream.
>
> As this discussion continues I think this looks more and more like a
river that drains into a sheltered bay than one that drains directly into
the ocean.
>
>> > – Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:42 PM < muralito at montevideo.com.uy > wrote:
>>
>> >> ----- Mensaje original -----
>> >> > De: "Kevin Kenny" < kevin.b.kenny at gmail.com >
>> >> > Para: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <
tagging at openstreetmap.org >
>> >> > Enviados: Martes, 4 de Agosto 2020 16:28:55
>> >> > Asunto: Re: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war
>>
>> >> > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:18 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com >
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> >> These rules would exclude the lower Rio De La Plata and the lower
part of the
>> >> >> mouth of the Saint Lawrence river, as well as other wide estuaries
where winds
>> >> >> and tides have more influence on surface water flow than does the
discharge of
>> >> >> the river. It would not prevent mapping the Hudson mouth at the
southern tip of
>> >> >> Manhattan, because the flow is strong all the way to New York
Harbor, if I
>> >> >> understand correctly.
>>
>> >> > The Hudson definitely reverses flow. One of its names among the
First Peoples
>> >> > translates to 'the river flows both ways.' The division in the flow
lies less
>> >> > in the fraction of the tidal cycle than the speed of the current.
It flows
>> >> > 'upstream' for half the time, 'downstream' for half, but the
downstream current
>> >> > is considerably swifter.
>>
>> >> Rio de la Plata would not be excluded, as you can read in the
document [8] i
>> >> linked in my first mail, for example, see some graphics of the flow
of the
>> >> river in page 25.
>> >> [8] DINAMA. Salinidad
>> >>
https://www.dinama.gub.uy/oan/documentos/uploads/2016/12/patrones_circulacion.pdf
>>
>> >> Regaards,
>> >> M.
>>
>> >>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> >> Con el nuevo beneficio fiscal, tu facturación electrónica puede ser
sin costo.
>>
>> >> Informate si aplicás aquí.
>>
>> >> mvdfactura.uy
>>
>> >>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Tagging mailing list
>> >> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Tagging mailing list
>> > Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Con el nuevo beneficio fiscal, tu facturación electrónica puede ser sin
costo.
>>
>> Informate si aplicás aquí.
>>
>> mvdfactura.uy
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200805/2d23b2a1/attachment-0001.htm>


More information about the Tagging mailing list