[Tagging] Benches and hostile architecture

[Joseph Eisenberg]

RE: "Would something like hindrance:target = lying_down or hindrance:target
= sitting be more clear?"

While this is somewhat less ambiguous, it looks and sounds quite strange in
English, and it's quite long.

How about "lying_down=obstructed", "sitting=obstructed",
"skating=obstructed" or something like that?

I also think it would be a good idea to tag the physical obstructions, like
width=, length=, slope=, arm_rests=, spikes=, skatestoppers=, etc, as
others have mentioned.

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 6:46 AM Vucod via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
wrote:
>
> Just to clarify an important point. The hostile_architecture key was
suggested as a main/category tag to go along with specific keys
(lying_hindrance, sitting_hindrance).
> Used alone, I agree that it would be very vague and could be difficult to
verify. I would say to only use it in combination with specific keys but I
don't know how this would be followed by mappers...
>
> On the specific tags:
>
> @Josepth Eisenberg(mail below):
>
> As others have said, no_* and *=prohibited loose the notion of hindrance
that is crucial if we want to map physical and visible things. Would
something like hindrance:target = lying_down or hindrance:target = sitting
be more clear? And yes, the goal is to make clear that {lying|sitting|...}
is physically obstructed (no relation to legal usage).
>
> @Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
> "what about benches being completely removed (or never installed), it’s
equally hostile but not mappable. Or shops who are right away not built in
a way that you could sit down on their facade."
>
> With tags like lying_hindrance and sitting_hindrance, we don't look for
the intentions of the builders but we just look for these hindrances. So,
we would not map your examples.
>
> "quite common in Rome are inside corners of buildings filled with masonry
(typically up to 1,5m) so people do not urinate (not a recent feature, most
look as if they were hundreds of years old). And in this case, it’s also
probably more beneficial than hostile in the general perception. At least I
guess many of us would deny a right of public urination in the city?"
>
> Yes with the term "hostile", an opinion could be seen behind it but the
term "hostile architecture" refers to the enforcement/prevention of some
> behaviors whether it is good or not. In German and French, they use
defensive architecture/ defensive urban design where it is less opinionated.
>
> @Mateusz Konieczny : ""length was refused as an official key for bench"
Why? Is there some valid reason, or maybe it was part of proposal that
failed for other reasons."
>
> length and width keys on benches were refused because they judged that it
was going too much into details (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Attributes)
>
>
> On the generic tag:
>
> As info:
>
> - "Hostile architecture", a Wikipédia article, a subreddit and 150 000
google results
> - "Hostile design", 20 000 google results
>
> Vucod
>
> August 23, 2020 10:22:38 PM CEST Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The term "hostile architecture" is too vague. As an alternative
"anti-homeless" is also not precise enough. We are getting closer with the
initial suggestion that the feature is to prevent lying down, sleeping or
sitting.
>
> However, I think the tags "sitting_hindrance=" and "lying_hindrance" are
not clear enough in English. The term "lying" is ambiguous, since it can
refer to "telling lies" (falsehoods) as well. Also, in English syntax it
sounds strange to say something is a "lying hindrance", because this would
normally be an obstacle which is lying down, rather than a hindrance to a
person lying down.
>
> So it would be better to change the order of words in the tags, e.g.
"no_lying=" and "no_sitting=" , or just simplify to "sitting=prohibited"
and "lying_down=prohibited" or similar. But I admit that none of those
options are perfectly clear. Perhaps someone else has a better phrase?
>
>
> We want to make it clear that lying down or sitting down is not allowed
or physical obstructed, right?
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 10:38 AM Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 18:22, Oliver Simmons <oliversimmo at gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> >> Someone else can probably think of a better suggestion
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture
> >
> > --
> > Paul
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200824/672a35a2/attachment-0001.htm>