[Tagging] Fuzzy areas again: should we have them or not?

Anders Torger anders at torger.se
Mon Dec 21 13:33:16 UTC 2020


Thanks Frederik,

if I interpret your answer correctly it is that we should not map these 
names at all (at least not within the scope of OSM database and 
OSM-Carto rendering), is that correct?

As a mapper I would like to know what the strategy is so I don't waste 
my effort on dead ends.

A technical comment: I don't see a need for wavy polygons or something 
fancy like that. Just regular polygons. They are by definition fuzzy, 
the polygon borders aren't supposed to be rendered, it's just a guide 
for renderers to know where to place text label. I see no need for a new 
datatype, I think the database is ready for fuzzy areas today, and is 
already being used (bays and straits).

However, it becomes more and more clear that the leading profiles in the 
OSM community actually doesn't care *that* much about rural/outdoor 
map-making, or at least that the current view of what the data model 
should be is more important. I certainly don't mean this is a derogatory 
manner, it's perfectly fine to have that view. However, I on the other 
hand care very much about rural and outdoor map-making and desire that 
be an important end use for the OSM data I contribute, and I get a bit 
confused. I get thrown between hope and despair regarding the general 
community's view on this. A clearly stated strategy would be nice. 
Without that I get I like "maybe if I come up with a better idea to 
store these names they'll like it", but if we don't want them in the 
first place, I'd appreciate if we just say so.

I know lettering across the alps and other huge areas is a favorite 
example, but in my context it's much more about the small ones. In rural 
areas we have about 5-10 of these types of names per 10x10 km square. 
Not mapping those make rural maps and outdoor maps a lot less useful 
than they could be. These names are used all the time by outdoor people. 
Not having them in large disqualifies OSM to be used for outdoor map end 
products, but if that is what the community wants I'm certainly ready to 
accept that. There's no use to map areas which we never intend to make 
useful maps for, so then I'll just skip those. There are still other 
areas to map.

/Anders

On 2020-12-21 13:57, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 21.12.20 10:20, Anders Torger wrote:
>> In the mountains we have an number of named plateaus. There is a tag
>> proposal for natural=plateau, but just like with natural=peninsula and
>> similar tags there is an underlying question that we really need an
>> answer to first: should we have fuzzy areas or should we not?
> 
> I think I have laid out my point in
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-December/056823.html
> 
> Our current data model is not suitable for mapping fuzzy areas. We can
> only do "precise". Also, as you correctly pointed out, or basic tenet 
> of
> verifiability doesn't work well with fuzzy data.
> 
> So the one questions is, do we want fuzzy areas, the other is, if we
> want them, how can they be established - because in our current 
> database
> they cannot.
> 
> I think fuzzy areas make a lot of sense for cartography, but I strongly
> object to people adding hand-wavy polygons to OSM for fuzzy areas.
> 
>> We know there are disadvantages and no solution is 100%
>> perfect, but sometimes there's a higher goal to fulfill.
> 
> Having a nice lettering across the Alps is certainly not a "higher 
> goal"
> for OSM as a whole; forcing fuzzy polygons for that into OSM is
> irrelevant for most and outright damaging for some use cases, and the
> advantage it would have for the one single use case of map rendering
> does not justify it.
> 
> Please stop trying to frame this as "cartographers have a right to 
> abuse
> the data model, and if someone doesn't want that, they need to present 
> a
> viable alternative". We've come very far in OSM without such abuse and 
> I
> don't see why it should suddenly be introduced.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik



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