[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Wed Jul 1 12:48:42 UTC 2020

> The only possible downside I see is that it requires more carto code if you
> want different icons.  But that would be necessary however we did this.

Possibly. But if part of the world already uses amenity=café for
places that do not primarily focus on coffee, this icon revision based
on subtypes is unavoidable and a beneficial update.

>  Of course, the unambiguous,
> uncontaminated name would be cukrászda, but I doubt that would
> go down well with those who don't speak Magyar.

Yes, tagging with "cukrászda" would be the best. ;-) Although, people
would have a hard time typing the accent, and surely it's not a
Hungarian invention. I imagine it could have been inspired by the
French patisserie and brought in from Germany to the Austro-Hungarian

>  Maybe > cafe=beverages?  I'm not entirely happy with that as it implies
> nothing but beverages.

Just to recap, a cukrászda is kind of an artisan fancy dessert bakery,
cakery & confectionery that operates as a café where they replace
"coffee" with "desserts" in people's minds.

They may offer liquid desserts as well, but this is usually not a
defining characteristic.

> It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
> coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.

Yes, that should be a good idea before someone submits a grand
unification proposal.

> Do sandwiches as well as cakes make it a diner?  How about if there
> are hot sausage rolls, too?  What is the classification of the places
> at smaller railway stations that have this sort of menu but aren't
> places people go to socialize?

If the primary audience is hungry travelers, then it would probably be
a diner (or a fast food restaurant, not sure about the difference in
the UK). Otherwise if they just want to have something to go with the
tea or coffee, it's not a diner.

It's pretty subjective and culture dependent what people usually mean
by "go with" in this context, but local mappers can almost always
determine that with high accuracy.

For example, some cultures would call for cookies with their tea,
while others do pretzels or peanuts, still others may be fine with
thin sausage stick snacks, a pickled egg or a mini sandwich. Surely
you can get "filled" with any kind of food item if you consume a vast
amount of it, but the intention here is that the meal part should not
be that "filling" to the point of being an obstacle to further drink
consumption .

>> Or even this one:
>> amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse
> For golfers? :)

Hah, a mind spoiled by the command line. Hm, should have been
amenity=cafe + cafe=teahouse...

>> For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
>> takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.
> Shop=pastry?

Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
offer many items from the following categories:
* cakes
* cookies
* custards
* doughnuts
* frozen desserts
* puddings
* scones
* sugar confections
* sweet pastries
* sweet pies

> I'm kind of puzzled as to how the socialization aspect of a cukrászda works when
> there are no seats. :)

Indeed, the socialization aspect is not important for shops. However,
what is still important is:
* they focus on various desserts and usually appeal based on the looks,
* have a refrigerated translucent counter,
* their products are hand made,
* the products are usually not prepackaged,
* the products are perishable, usually without added extra
preservatives in most items,
* they are usually a family owned small producer, not a retailer,
* they hold appropriate government "cukrász"/confectioner/whatever
licenses as per country regulations and/or advertise their cooking
certificates and awards on the wall,
* they usually offer on demand customization, made to order,
* they usually offer a choice of bottled drinks to go with your dessert.

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