[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Wed Jul 1 13:43:02 UTC 2020


>> > Shop=pastry?
>> >
>>
>> Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
>> exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
>> offer many items from the following categories:
>> * cakes
>> * cookies
>> * custards
>> * doughnuts
>> * frozen desserts
>> * puddings
>> * scones
>> * sugar confections
>> * sweet pastries
>> * sweet pies
>
>
> What you list is a mix of (to use the technical terms) baker's confectionery
> and sugar confectionery.
>

Almost right, but see the rational definition from Wikipedia:

> Bakers' confectionery includes sweet baked goods, especially those that are served for the dessert course.
> Bakers' confections are sweet foods that feature flour as a main ingredient and are baked.

The above list and the menu of a cukrászda may also include desserts which:
* need cooking, but not baking,
* need no cooking or baking at all,
* do not have flour as the main ingredient,
* some that bakers aren't allowed to make in Hungary (only a cukrász
or a pastry cook).

I based these top level dessert/sweet categories on these pages:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desserts
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pastries
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery

> What a shame we don't have a word that
> combines both types of item.
>
> Actually, we not only have such a word, we have the corresponding tag:
> shop=confectionery.  However, the wiki contradicts itself.  The first paragraph
> includes cakes and croissants as items it sells.  The second paragraph says
> that shops selling cakes should be shop=pastry.
>
> Also, I don't know about the UK in general, but I can only remember
> seeing "confectionery" applied to sweet shops that want to appear
> up-market.  Wiktionary agrees with me.  Wikipedia doesn't.
>

Unfortunately, my position as a foreigner is pretty weak when trying
to argue about the meaning of English words with a native speaker, but
let me share the insight I gained after analyzing a few articles.

The word "confectionery" can mean both
* sugar confections alone,
* and a broad category that encompasses both sugar confections and
baker's confections.

This confusion causes the kind of documentation inconsistency that you
observe. Hence we should avoid words with such confusing multiple
meanings in OpenStreetMap if possible. Hence I propose that we
deprecate shop=confectionery and introduce shop=sugar_confections
instead.

A word even worse than this is "pastry", that could refer to:
* a kind of dough,
* vaguely "small tarts and other sweet baked products",
* a mostly specific category of desserts outlined in the above
taxonomy related to the second point,
* sometimes incorrectly to various desserts in general.

Though the last one doesn't seem to be an accepted meaning, this error
occurs a lot on Wikipedia (possibly propagated by non-native
speakers).

After some more effort, I could narrow down the definition to
something manageable by cross checking with my taxonomy outlined
above, but the blur between its meanings also warrants avoidance in
OpenStreetMap.



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