[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 13:54:52 UTC 2020

Thank you for your additions regarding Italy and Germany, I've copied
your insights into the document.

So to summarize, we started to debate this around 2011 before you
introduced shop=pastry and then had some more discussions in 2016,
2018 and this year too. We've also experienced the shop=confectionery
vs. shop=pastry debate back then and ever since had been wondering
what the exact definition of shop=pastry is around the world.

We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
shop=pastry or amenity=cafe. I think we would need some more input
from other nations before we can proceed to discuss the recommended
tagging. It would be great if we could only focus on each nation's
specialty in this thread and not be carried away by existing tagging

If you are interested, let me share just a few corner cases based on
the linked shared notes. It would be perfectly normal for a sit-in
cukrászda to not offer coffee or wifi at all or lack table service. In
contrast, a data user would rightly have the expectation of finding a
somewhat wide variety of coffee at a cafe returned in the search

Also, how would you customize the map icon? The cuisine tag within a
cafe could contain a lot of elements. What would differentiate between
a cukrászda and a cafe for either the renderer or a search engine,
*pastry*? As described in the shared notes, it's common for a cafe to
serve at least one kind of sliced cake along with coffee (possibly
purchased from either a cukrászda or from some industrial source). A
cukrászda that is artisan can by default accept custom orders for
cakes, while that can't be said about a cafe. How would I find this on
a map if the two were combined?

After consulting the OSM wiki and Wikipedia, I had to conclude that
"pastry" is too narrow of a category to be useful for us. As
previously mentioned, a cukrászda also carries a wide variety of
desserts, including sugar confections, flour confections (pastry),
non-dough based desserts, liquid desserts, ice cream, salty snacks and
possibly also sandwiches. If during the discussion we find an overlap
in meaning with shop=pastry, at the very least, we should introduce a
new tag (e.g., shop=dessert) and specify the kind of desserts it
carries (sugar confections, pastry, cake, ice cream, etc.) and
deprecate the redundant old top level tags.

In Hungary, shops selling non-artisan sugar confections ("sweets
shops") is rare. Ones selling mass-produced, non-customizable pastries
even more so (if they exist at all other than in supermarkets). On the
other hand, even smallish villages can support a fancy cukrászda
producing various desserts along with a few more bakeries that also
produce simple sweet pastry. Around here, a bakery producing sweet
pastry (pretty common) is not the same as a cukrászda.

We list many more arguments in the linked document if you are interested.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:02 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
> FWIW, the tag shop=pastry was introduced for these, because the tag that was in use up to then was shop=confectionery where the term seemed to describe a sweets shop. Now, pastry is probably a term which covers just a part of all these, literally. In general, it may also be a question what you want to describe, naturally, all of these sell different kind of products, according to the local tradition.
> Generally, in Italy the term is "pasticceria" and also "gelateria" (artisanal ice cream maker), as the latter are officially considered a subtype of "pasticceria" (you can also often/sometimes find pasticcerias which sell icecream they produce during the summer, although many gelateria shops will only sell ice cream, or might additionally sell sweet bakery which includes ice cream, e.g. semifreddo (half cold), ice cream sandwiches, etc..
> Sometimes, there are mixed places, which sell both, bread and salty bakery together with sweet bakery (typical in Germany), and there are of course also huge differences in the types of products ("simpler sweet bakery will often be present in a pasticceria, while more sophisticated products may be more probably limited to "pure" pasticcerias (or Konditorei in Germany). A normal "bakery" in Germany will usually also sell simple sweet bakery products ("Kuchen"), while a "Bäckerei Konditorei" will more probably have a bigger selection and more elaborated "Torten".
> One distinction (subtag / property) could be whether they have products with cream, or more stuff like cookies.
> Furthermore, there are also pasticcerias which specialize in regional products (e.g. pastry from Sicily, also outside of Sicily in other places, e.g. Cannoli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannoli e Cassata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassata and cassatina: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.qhDcBUpJMzoRMX2LNVi51wHaE-%26pid%3DApi&f=1
> Also in Germany (and probably elsewhere), you will find different kind of products according to the region.
> Another type of sweet bakery products, from the middle east and north africa. Turkey and central asia, but which can also be found in Central Europe quite often, is Baklava: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklava
> Cheers,
> Martin
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