[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Paul Allen pla16021 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 15:09:37 UTC 2020

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:58, bkil <bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com> wrote:

> We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.

Less of the "we." You may be dissatisfied with those tags, I am not.

> If you are interested, let me share just a few corner cases based on
> the linked shared notes. It would be perfectly normal for a sit-in
> cukrászda to not offer coffee or wifi at all or lack table service.

 Some cafes in the UK lack table service.  Maybe somebody brings your
order over after you've placed your order at the counter, maybe your order
is announced when it is ready and you have to get it yourself, maybe
you sit down and somebody asks what you want then brings it over
when it is ready.

In contrast, a data user would rightly have the expectation of finding a
> somewhat wide variety of coffee at a cafe returned in the search
> results.

I would not.  You're using the French etymology on a term that is
British English.  Cafes sell more than coffee.  Cafes may have
only one, rather inferior, brand of coffee.

> Also, how would you customize the map icon? The cuisine tag within a
> cafe could contain a lot of elements. What would differentiate between
> a cukrászda and a cafe for either the renderer or a search engine,
> *pastry*?

What is the difference between the icons for an Indian restaurant, a
Chinese restaurant, and a French restaurant?  The cuisines are
very different.  And then there are fusion cuisines.

As described in the shared notes, it's common for a cafe to
> serve at least one kind of sliced cake along with coffee (possibly
> purchased from either a cukrászda or from some industrial source). A
> cukrászda that is artisan can by default accept custom orders for
> cakes, while that can't be said about a cafe. How would I find this on
> a map if the two were combined?

Add a craft=patisserie node.  I expect that a tourist in a strange town
for a pastry shop because of hunger pangs would be more than happy to make
a 30-minute side trip to go to an artisan pastry shop for a custom order
wait however long it takes to bake it).  Such a devotee would be happy to
write a cartographic style to ensure that two very close nodes render,
because pastry shops are so VERY important in the scheme of things.

OSM isn't a gazetteer.  It's not a search engine.  It's not the Yellow
It has technical limitations.

> After consulting the OSM wiki and Wikipedia, I had to conclude that
> "pastry" is too narrow of a category to be useful for us. As
> previously mentioned, a cukrászda also carries a wide variety of
> desserts, including sugar confections, flour confections (pastry),
> non-dough based desserts, liquid desserts, ice cream, salty snacks and
> possibly also sandwiches.

But not all cukrászda will carry all of those things.  So we obviously need
a separate tag for each of the many combinations.  Or maybe we could
just have shop=pastry and add cuisine=* as required for things that
aren't pastries.

If during the discussion we find an overlap
> in meaning with shop=pastry, at the very least, we should introduce a
> new tag (e.g., shop=dessert) and specify the kind of desserts it
> carries (sugar confections, pastry, cake, ice cream, etc.) and
> deprecate the redundant old top level tags.

Except we already have tags for sweet shops, ice cream shops, and
pastry shops.  You now propose lumping those all together in one
top-level tag (which won't happen because there are too many to
change) yet refuse to use shop=pastry with sub-tags because you
think it is not specific enough.  Goldilocks didn't enounter a
bowl of porridge that was simultaneously too hot and too cold
yet you deem shop=pastry too specific yet not specific

> In Hungary, shops selling non-artisan sugar confections ("sweets
> shops") is rare. Ones selling mass-produced, non-customizable pastries
> even more so (if they exist at all other than in supermarkets). On the
> other hand, even smallish villages can support a fancy cukrászda
> producing various desserts along with a few more bakeries that also
> produce simple sweet pastry. Around here, a bakery producing sweet
> pastry (pretty common) is not the same as a cukrászda.

Somebody called bkil proposed lumping all types of desserts under a
single tag.  Maybe you should discuss this with him.  He thinks bakeries
producing sweet pastry and cukrászda should be lumped together, along
with shops selling ice cream and salty snacks.  Maybe you could spend
time off-list arguing with bkil until you reach some sort of logically-
consistent agreement.

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