[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Paul Allen pla16021 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 17:50:57 UTC 2020

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 18:22, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>

> On 28. Jun 2020, at 17:11, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  Some cafes in the UK lack table service.  Maybe somebody brings your
> order over after you've placed your order at the counter, maybe your order
> is announced when it is ready and you have to get it yourself, maybe
> you sit down and somebody asks what you want then brings it over
> when it is ready.
> question is whether we distinguish these places by main type or by subtags.

Sub-tag, if we distinguish at all.  On general principle.  Because I can
a cafe by looking through the window as I go past but I cannot determine
the type of service without hanging around or going in.  Sub-tag so extra
detail can be added later.  Make it a main tag and I have to guess, and may
guess wrong.

Is a self service restaurant a restaurant?

I wouldn't describe self-service as a restaurant.  Restaurants have a larger
menu, full service and are more expensive than cafes.  Restaurants are
about experience; cafes are about food.  Bistros (British English usage)
are small restaurants.

Providing table service or not is a significant difference that gener
>  merits reflection in tagging (IMHO).

By itself, probably not.  But I wouldn't expect to ever find a place in the
calling itself a restaurant but being self-service.  A place where you
serve yourself
is more of a canteen than a cafe.  But cafes range anywhere from "sit down
somebody will take your order" to "walk up to the counter, give your order,
down until your order is ready, walk back to the counter to get your order,
down again".  Maybe there is some merit in sub-tagging those.  Oh, and
that was back in the Before Times, things have probably changed, at least
for the next year or so.

Cafes sell more than coffee.  Cafes may have
> only one, rather inferior, brand of coffee.
> maybe in Britain ;-)

Things have changed even in Britain.  15 years ago it would be rare to find
a cafe with more than one type of coffee and the choice was with milk or
without milk.  Now they often have many types of coffee with many additions,
but I always order "coffee-flavoured coffee" anyway.  Even so, 15 years ago
with only one type of coffee, it was still a cafe.  50 years ago it may
only have
had tea, but it was still a cafe.

> Bad jokes aside, I recall a discussion on the local mailing list to tag
> coffee brands, and there are a handful examples in the db:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=brand%3DLavazza

There are so many, though.  Even a small (4-person) distributor near me
developed their own blends several years ago and added their own roasting
machinery (home-built) a couple of years ago.  They supply a lot of cafes
within about a 30-mile radius.  Are they big enough to deserve their own
in OSM?

Add a craft=patisserie node.
> the scheme for craft is craft=profession so patisserie does not really
> make sense.

True.  But a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
according to
Emmerson. :)

> I guess craft=pâtissier is not considered to be English?

It's not well-known outside the cognoscenti, is my guess.  But we borrow
all the time.  Like "cognoscenti."  Actually, it looks like we already have
that one and decided it means "pastry chef."

My dictionary says craft=confectioner does this make sense?

Confectioners make or sell (usually sell) confections, which are things that
are rich in sugar.  Divided into bakers' confections (cakes with lots of
and sugar confections (sweets).  Often, in my experience, applied to
sweet shops that wish to sound more up-market.  So too ambiguous
to apply to patissiers.


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