[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdreist at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 19:11:59 UTC 2020

sent from a phone

> On 28. Jun 2020, at 19:52, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Because I can spot
> a cafe by looking through the window as I go past but I cannot determine
> the type of service without hanging around or going in. 

it lies in the nature of things that you must know a thing in order to be able to describe it in detail. You say a restaurant which hasn’t table service is not a restaurant (and I am willing to follow), but then you say a cafe is (only/primarily) about the food while a restaurant is about the experience, and here I tend to disagree. It may describe the British situation well, but I would have thought a cafe is also about the experience. You also write a restaurant is more expensive than a cafe, while in my experience they are both at the same level (wrt the same kind of item, naturally a piece of cake is less expensive than a 3 course menu).

> Restaurants have a larger
> menu, full service and are more expensive than cafes.

it may depend on the context/cuisine, there are very good restaurants with a small (changing) selection, because it’s a good way to provide fresh food while a large menu may generally be an indication that things aren’t fresh.

How much of this is a requirement for the OpenStreetMap tag, and how much is just your or my expectation for our respective cultural context? 

Traditionally osm tags tend to be underspecified, and people read into these tags what they locally expect from the meaning of the word.
E.g. an object tagged as amenity=pub is probably a place where you get something to eat in Britain, in Germany very less so.

> By itself, probably not.  But I wouldn't expect to ever find a place in the UK
> calling itself a restaurant but being self-service.  A place where you serve yourself
> is more of a canteen than a cafe.  But cafes range anywhere from "sit down and
> somebody will take your order" to "walk up to the counter, give your order, sit
> down until your order is ready, walk back to the counter to get your order, sit
> down again". 


> Maybe there is some merit in sub-tagging those.  Oh, and
> that was back in the Before Times, things have probably changed, at least
> for the next year or so.

agreed, there’s continuous evolution and new styles are experimented and things also change gradually 

> There are so many, though.  Even a small (4-person) distributor near me 
> developed their own blends several years ago and added their own roasting
> machinery (home-built) a couple of years ago.  They supply a lot of cafes
> within about a 30-mile radius.  Are they big enough to deserve their own brand
> in OSM?

IMHO yes, as soon as 1 object uses a brand I would tag it as such. We’ve had a similar discussion about petrol stations, where some mappers tagged independent brands (with maybe currently not more than one station, or maybe a handful), while a few others favored “brand=independent” (as a generic term, it is not actually a brand).

>> Add a craft=patisserie node. 
>> the scheme for craft is craft=profession so patisserie does not really make sense. 
> True.  But a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, according to
> Emmerson. :)

if we do not strive for consistency it will be more difficult for people to understand the scheme (indeed it is already diluted). It makes life for everybody harder if we develop the tags without a system in mind

>> Confectioners make or sell (usually sell) confections, which are things that
> are rich in sugar.  Divided into bakers' confections (cakes with lots of icing)
> and sugar confections (sweets).

the latter including chocolate I guess? Maybe we should split chocolate from candy?

Cheers Martin 
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