[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Paul Allen pla16021 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 19:53:40 UTC 2020

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 20:13, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>

> On 28. Jun 2020, at 19:52, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> it lies in the nature of things that you must know a thing in order to be
> able to describe it in detail. You say a restaurant which hasn’t table
> service is not a restaurant (and I am willing to follow), but then you say
> a cafe is (only/primarily) about the food while a restaurant is about the
> experience, and here I tend to disagree. It may describe the British
> situation well, but I would have thought a cafe is also about the
> experience.

In one sense, getting punched in the face is an experience.  But it's not a
good one and not one most people would pay money for.

In my experience, restaurants offer a larger menu than cafes.  Restaurant
generally consist of things that take longer to cook than those on cafe
That means customers spend longer waiting for their meals.  That means the
seating and ambience needs to be more comfortable or they will be unwilling
to wait.  All that waiting for the food means lower throughput for the
That makes restaurants more expensive to operate.

> You also write a restaurant is more expensive than a cafe, while in my
> experience they are both at the same level (wrt the same kind of item,
> naturally a piece of cake is less expensive than a 3 course menu).

Either you have very expensive cafes or very cheap restaurants. :)  A place
offering a 3-course menu here is unlikely to call itself a cafe (or be
thought of as

> Restaurants have a larger menu, full service and are more expensive than
> cafes.
> it may depend on the context/cuisine, there are very good restaurants with
> a small (changing) selection, because it’s a good way to provide fresh food
> while a large menu may generally be an indication that things aren’t fresh.
> This is true.  I should have said that restaurants generally have a larger
That's because more preparation is involved rather than having pre-cooked
on a rotating hot plate.  Cafes are more about fast food with seating
a generalization).  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food
seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe).

How much of this is a requirement for the OpenStreetMap tag, and how much
> is just your or my expectation for our respective cultural context?

That is a deep philosophical question embracing several fields of
knowledge.  There
is a distinction between cafe and restaurant that is made in some
cultures.  Do we
need to make that distinction in OSM?  If I were by myself and very hungry
look for a cafe; if I wanted to impress somebody by taking them for a meal
I'd look
for a restaurant.

> Traditionally osm tags tend to be underspecified, and people read into
> thes
e tags what they locally expect from the meaning of the word.

>From my viewpoint, that's not necessarily a good thing.  Not for a global

E.g. an object tagged as amenity=pub is probably a place where you get
> something to eat in Britain, in Germany very less so.

Back when I became old enough to drink in a pub, what you could get to eat
consisted of
bags of salted peanuts and crisps.  Maybe a pickled egg, if you were
lucky.  These
days many, but not all, British pubs serve food.  For some it's hard to
decide if they're
a pub that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol.  Generally, if
they're happy
for you to wander in and just drink, it's a pub (especially if they call
themselves a

Confectioners make or sell (usually sell) confections, which are things that
are rich in sugar.  Divided into bakers' confections (cakes with lots of
> icing)
and sugar confections (sweets).

the latter including chocolate I guess?

Yes.  Chocolates are sweets.  In British English.

> Maybe we should split chocolate from candy?

Candy is a Merkin term.  British English calls them sweets (but as Merkin
marketing makes more inroads, that will probably change).  Please don't ask
me about bread with chocolate in it (I noticed a shop a few miles from me is
now offering it) as that's a bit of a taxonomic pain.

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