[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Paul Allen pla16021 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 22:58:07 UTC 2020

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 22:14, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>

> On 28. Jun 2020, at 21:55, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Either you have very expensive cafes or very cheap restaurants. :)
> clearly you could have both, so it is not a very good criterion.

If it's the same price in both then either the cafe is charging too much (so
will get few customers) or the restaurant is charging too little (so will
go broke).

 To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food with
> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe)
> I would expect a fast food to provide seating, not so comfortable seating
> probably,

Chip shops without seats exist (probably more common than those with seats).
Most kebab shops don't have seats.  Most non-brand burger shops don't have

although it is not a must (unlike a cafe or restaurant where it is a
> requirement).

At least we agree on that.  Cafes and restaurants have seats. :)

Harder, as somebody else pointed out, is a McDonalds with seats.  It's
fast food, but it has seats.  I'd map it as a cafe with takeaway=yes since
we don't appear to have the option for fast food with seating=yes.  With
hindsight, we could probably have come up with better tagging where
the speed of the food is orthogonal to the seating, but we're stuck with
what we have.

A fast food is designed to eat and walk out, in a  restaurant you would
> also walk in, order, wait, eat and afterwards leave, but you would spend
> much more time there (and they will not kick you out if you kept sitting
> and talking for some time after you finished eating).

There we also agree.  To an extent.  Fast food with seats is short stay,
I'd call it a cafe.  Restaurant is a longer experience.

A cafe is more like a pub in this regard, you typically meet there with
> other people

More the opposite, in my experience.  Cafes are often used by people going
for lunch by themselves.  They may strike up conversation with strangers,
they may not (depends on your culture).  There are solitary drinkers in pubs
but they are rare.

and will stay longer as required to consume the food (that’s what it makes
> it expensive)

For a cafe, you don't get long after you've finished.  They're cheaper than
restaurants because they have faster throughput.

> we already decided that we want to distinguish these, but it now came out
> that for you a cafe is mainly a place to have breakfast or lunch, while in
> Germany a cafe is more a place to have a coffee and a piece of cake in the
> afternoon (typically you could also have breakfast there, and often also
> small stuff for lunch).

Not so different here.  It depends on the cafe.  Some cater more to
lunch trade.  Others cater to passing tourists wanting a piece of cake.
there's a need to distinguish between those using more than just cuisine,
there's usually some degree of overlap in what is on offer.  Also the name
tends to reflect what they sell: in the UK "tea shop" and "coffee shop" tend
to have a cake bias.  But there are also places that are heavily biased
cake that call themselves cafes.  One cafe I mapped started out selling only
cake and later added non-cake items.  It's a spectrum.

and the wiki just says “ A generally informal place with sit-down
> facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks.”
> which is a description that fits for pubs,

It doesn't explicitly say alcoholic beverages, so it doesn't fit pubs.
There are
still some pubs that don't sell meals, so it doesn't fit pubs.  But I'm
it with a British bias.  With that bias, it doesn't even hint at pubs.

cafes, bistros, bars, ...

Cafes, yes.  Bistros (UK meaning) are more formal than cafes but less formal
(or at least smaller) than restaurants.  Bar is just  a variant of pub,
with even
less expectation of food.

> Back when I became old enough to drink in a pub, what you could get to eat
> consisted of
> bags of salted peanuts and crisps.
> then it’s not so different :)

Except that when the smoking ban came in, trade dropped off.  Pubs here
realized that they could make up that trade by selling food.  And that they
made more money selling food than drink.  Especially if they let children
in (which wasn't really permitted decades ago) for family meals.  I'm
Germany hasn't gone that way.  That smoking ban hit your pubs as hard and
I doubt the economics are so different that meals aren't more profitable
than drinks.

 For some it's hard to decide if they're
a pub that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol.

do you have restaurants that do not serve alcohol?

Yes.  Mostly because the authorities decide there are too many outlets
selling alcohol nearby and refuse them a licence.  But even those that are
licenced take a dim view of somebody strolling in for a pint.  Usually they
won't sell you alcohol except with a meal (and often are only licensed to
sell alcohol with a meal).

 Please don't ask
me about bread with chocolate in it (I noticed a shop a few miles from me is
now offering it) as that's a bit of a taxonomic pain.

> seems like clearly “sweets”, not?

I'm fairly sure you're joking there.  But not certain.  So...  This is
relatively new in the UK and I have no idea how anybody else here
classifies it.
Maybe bread, probably pastry, but I very much doubt sweets.  Very much a

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