[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Mon Jun 29 11:33:29 UTC 2020

Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
from. Let's get some facts straight. It may be true that almost all
words in OSM are interpreted within British English, but amenity=café
is an exception (we've decided to leave out the accent for the benefit
of the international community).

Other than the accidental clash in wording, it doesn't refer to a
British cafe, greasy spoon or a diner - without having visited one of
those, I'd probably simply tag those as amenity=fast_food.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe (redirect to coffeehouse)

Let me share some proof to consider.

If you refer to:

> amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal place with sit-down facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks. This includes coffee-shops and tea shops selling perhaps tea, coffee and cakes through to bistros selling meals with alcoholic drinks."

This highlights the fact that we've introduced this kind of amenity to
tag a café or coffee-shop as per the text and Wikipedia.

The pictures all show coffeehouses.

The proposed icon that shows the most prominent feature of this
amenity depicts a coffee mug.

You can verify that this was the original intention and original icon
of the creators as well:

If you think the community should reserve the tag amenity=cafe for
diners and British cafe, what tag do you think the rest of the world
should be using for their hundreds of thousands of coffeehouses?

As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
cukrászda). Most small cafés around here usually lack a kitchen in
which they could cook hot meals. I think offering something quick and
simple like an omelette mentioned on the talk page could also be
plausible, but people definitely aren't coming here for the food.
However, it is not unheard of in Hungary that you could enjoy a 2-hour
limited-time daily lunch:menu=* meal in a café or in a drink-only pub
that they also order from outside kitchens (I also have some
description of this custom if you are interested - the source page has
recently been vandalized).

This also brings us back to amenity=fast_food:

> Fast food is for a place concentrating on very fast counter-only service and take-away food.
>The food has a short preparation and serving time, usually because it is industrially prepared food and requires very few additional preparation steps. Food is typically served on disposable plates or in boxes, and often to be eaten with plastic cutlery. Food is typically paid for at the counter prior to consuming. There may be sit-down facilities ranging from one or two to many easy-to-clean chairs and tables.
>The most obvious examples are the ubiquitous US chains such as McDonald's, but also includes places like Subway sandwich shops, and may include "fast casual" places like Chipotle Mexican Grill, Hot Dog booths, China take away, carts/food trucks (only ones that appear regularly at the same place) and more.


> A fast food restaurant, also known as a quick service restaurant (QSR) within the industry, is a specific type of restaurant that serves fast food cuisine and has minimal table service. The food served in fast food restaurants is typically part of a "meat-sweet diet", offered from a limited menu, cooked in bulk in advance and kept hot, finished and packaged to order, and usually available for take away, though seating may be provided. Fast food restaurants are typically part of a restaurant chain or franchise operation that provides standardized ingredients and/or partially prepared foods and supplies to each restaurant through controlled supply channels. The term "fast food" was recognized in a dictionary by Merriam–Webster in 1951.[1]
>Arguably, the first fast food restaurants originated in the United States with White Castle in 1921.[2] Today, American-founded fast food chains such as McDonald's (est. 1940) and KFC (est. 1952)[3][4][5][6] are multinational corporations with outlets across the globe.

Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
minority. The vast majority do have at least picnic table kind of
seating outside, and ones residing within buildings in Hungary almost
always offer seating. Interestingly, smallish places may not serve
coffee at all (they don't have room to house coffee machines or don't
have enough water supply).

Hence I would recommend you would follow the guidance of mapping a POI
by its primary function - i.e., _why_ people want to go there:
* If they regularly go there because they are hungry and want
something unsophisticated that can be prepared real fast from
industrial materials, they go to amenity=fast_food.
* If they want to eat something that is more akin to home cooking and
hand-made involving numerous cooking steps, they go to a restaurant
(and hence have to pay for the chef's expertise and full wage).
* If they want to socialize and have some (mostly non-alcoholic
drinks) like a coffee or tea, they go to an amenity=cafe.
* If they are not hungry, but want to enjoy a great dessert
experience, they go to a cukrászda.

I don't quite see the overlap (other than putting things inside your
mouth, but then we might as well tag everything

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 1:00 AM Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 22:14, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28. Jun 2020, at 21:55, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Either you have very expensive cafes or very cheap restaurants. :)
>> clearly you could have both, so it is not a very good criterion.
> If it's the same price in both then either the cafe is charging too much (so
> will get few customers) or the restaurant is charging too little (so will
> go broke).
>>  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food with
>> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe)
>> I would expect a fast food to provide seating, not so comfortable seating probably,
> Chip shops without seats exist (probably more common than those with seats).
> Most kebab shops don't have seats.  Most non-brand burger shops don't have
> seats.
>> although it is not a must (unlike a cafe or restaurant where it is a requirement).
> At least we agree on that.  Cafes and restaurants have seats. :)
> Harder, as somebody else pointed out, is a McDonalds with seats.  It's
> fast food, but it has seats.  I'd map it as a cafe with takeaway=yes since
> we don't appear to have the option for fast food with seating=yes.  With
> hindsight, we could probably have come up with better tagging where
> the speed of the food is orthogonal to the seating, but we're stuck with
> what we have.
>> A fast food is designed to eat and walk out, in a  restaurant you would also walk in, order, wait, eat and afterwards leave, but you would spend much more time there (and they will not kick you out if you kept sitting and talking for some time after you finished eating).
> There we also agree.  To an extent.  Fast food with seats is short stay, although
> I'd call it a cafe.  Restaurant is a longer experience.
>> A cafe is more like a pub in this regard, you typically meet there with other people
> More the opposite, in my experience.  Cafes are often used by people going
> for lunch by themselves.  They may strike up conversation with strangers,
> they may not (depends on your culture).  There are solitary drinkers in pubs
> but they are rare.
>> and will stay longer as required to consume the food (that’s what it makes it expensive)
> For a cafe, you don't get long after you've finished.  They're cheaper than
> restaurants because they have faster throughput.
>> we already decided that we want to distinguish these, but it now came out that for you a cafe is mainly a place to have breakfast or lunch, while in Germany a cafe is more a place to have a coffee and a piece of cake in the afternoon (typically you could also have breakfast there, and often also small stuff for lunch).
> Not so different here.  It depends on the cafe.  Some cater more to breakfast/
> lunch trade.  Others cater to passing tourists wanting a piece of cake.  Maybe
> there's a need to distinguish between those using more than just cuisine, but
> there's usually some degree of overlap in what is on offer.  Also the name
> tends to reflect what they sell: in the UK "tea shop" and "coffee shop" tend
> to have a cake bias.  But there are also places that are heavily biased towards
> cake that call themselves cafes.  One cafe I mapped started out selling only
> cake and later added non-cake items.  It's a spectrum.
>> and the wiki just says “ A generally informal place with sit-down facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks.”
>> which is a description that fits for pubs,
> It doesn't explicitly say alcoholic beverages, so it doesn't fit pubs.  There are
> still some pubs that don't sell meals, so it doesn't fit pubs.  But I'm reading
> it with a British bias.  With that bias, it doesn't even hint at pubs.
>> cafes, bistros, bars, ...
> Cafes, yes.  Bistros (UK meaning) are more formal than cafes but less formal
> (or at least smaller) than restaurants.  Bar is just  a variant of pub, with even
> less expectation of food.
>> Back when I became old enough to drink in a pub, what you could get to eat consisted of
>> bags of salted peanuts and crisps.
>> then it’s not so different :)
> Except that when the smoking ban came in, trade dropped off.  Pubs here
> realized that they could make up that trade by selling food.  And that they
> made more money selling food than drink.  Especially if they let children
> in (which wasn't really permitted decades ago) for family meals.  I'm surprised
> Germany hasn't gone that way.  That smoking ban hit your pubs as hard and
> I doubt the economics are so different that meals aren't more profitable
> than drinks.
>>  For some it's hard to decide if they're
>> a pub that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol.
>> do you have restaurants that do not serve alcohol?
> Yes.  Mostly because the authorities decide there are too many outlets
> selling alcohol nearby and refuse them a licence.  But even those that are
> licenced take a dim view of somebody strolling in for a pint.  Usually they
> won't sell you alcohol except with a meal (and often are only licensed to
> sell alcohol with a meal).
>  Please don't ask
> me about bread with chocolate in it (I noticed a shop a few miles from me is
> now offering it) as that's a bit of a taxonomic pain.
>> seems like clearly “sweets”, not?
> I'm fairly sure you're joking there.  But not certain.  So...  This is something
> relatively new in the UK and I have no idea how anybody else here classifies it.
> Maybe bread, probably pastry, but I very much doubt sweets.  Very much a
> pain.
> --
> Paul
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