[Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

bkil bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com
Mon Jun 29 19:02:32 UTC 2020

I think there would be room for such POI specialization in Hungary as
well (menza/cafeteria, kifőzde/étkezde, csárda, kisvendéglő, fogadó,
kávéház/kávézó, bisztró, pince, romkocsma).

Although, I may not be catching the gist here, based on the concept of
not including values in key names, should it be
restaurant:type=it:ristorente;it:pizzeria instead? Or is this a
translatable key, so we could add the equivalent
in there as well along all other translations? That sounds a bit

But basically yes, that could work, *if* we could find something to
specialize under. If we specialized sit-in "cukrászda" under
"café/kávéház", should we also create a "virtual" category under café
named "real kávéház"? That sounds like a bit involved.

Specializing the takeaway "cukrászda" under something close to
"pastry" may or may not work, depending on whether non-artisan pastry
shops are common outside Hungary and if they could lead to confusion
or not.

We also have places whose names implicate "mixed" function around
here, like "Étterem & pizzéria", "Étterem & cukrászda", "Cukrászda &
fagyizó", "Kávéház & cukrászda", "Kávézó & pékség", but in most cases
it is easy to determine the main function on a survey, most of the
time even from their website (most often restaurant, cukrászda,
cukrászda, cukrászda and café respectively, although the last one
could actually turn out to be indeed both a café and a bakery at the
same site).

However, I'm not quite comfortable with someone adding a specific
combination of top level tags to convey a new kind of function
regardless of how similar the synthesis result might sound like unless
the meaning of the independent tags can stand on their own on
the given POI and be valid.

For example I've seen something in Austria that looked like a
cukrászda being tagged amenity=café + shop=bakery (probably based on
the name). In general, if a data user that does not interpret this
combination specially only wanted to search for cafés, returning this
could be misleading as mentioned in the previous mail. If, on the
other hand it wanted to find all bakeries (to purchase bread or kifli
for example), the user would again be disappointed because such places
most often only keep fancy bakery products, not staple ones.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 4:09 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<dieterdreist at gmail.com> wrote:
> sent from a phone
> On 28. Jun 2020, at 15:58, bkil <bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com> wrote:
> We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.
> today I think I would prefer a generic descriptive term as the main tag (e.g. shop=sweet_bakery) and have subtags for specilizations or product categories.
> Another (general) issue are “mixed” places like “Bäckerei Konditorei Cafe” or “Bar Pasticceria Gelateria Tavola Calda”, as the individual classes often tend to use the same key.
> One way I am paying tribute to these is the
> restaurant:type:it tag, which gets multiple (slightly “normalized”) values in the local (here Italian) language:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait
> These can be quite useful for people speaking the language and familiar with the local expectations, and might eventually be transformed to more specific detail tags later (not holding my breath for it).
> Cheers Martin

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