[Tagging] Updating definition and description of place=square

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> So how does a mapper know when to use place=square?  Because the geometry
is square?  They're not all perfect squares.  Because it has "Square"
in its name?
You can do a wildcard search in overpass for that, you don't need a
place=square (but you'll also get the bus station above).  Or are we
talking about
a place where the public congregate? In which case we don't need place=square
for a park (even if its shape is square) but we do need it for a paved
pedestrian area
that is effectively a public square, whatever the shape and whatever the name.

Yes, this is the problem. Take a look at Portland, Oregon:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/45.5189/-122.6793

There is a square at the very center, named "Pioneer Courthouse
Square" - it really is a square, because it is paved with bricks, it's
a place where people congregate, and it's used for events.

A couple blocks to the east, you will see "Director Park". This is
also hardscaped and has a fountain and a cafe, and I would map it as a
place=square (and a highway=pedestrian area...), not as a leisure=park
because it is not vegetated.

To the north, at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/45.5291/-122.6818 we have
"Jamison Square", but this is a leisure=park: it is mostly vegetated
and has picnic tables. You can hang out or have a picnic or play here,
but it's not a spot for a political rallly or a big weekly market,
even though the name includes "square" and it is, in fact, a square
shape.

3 blocks north, we have another leisure=park, "Tanner Springs Park" -
same size and shape as Jamison Square. Tanner Springs is about 60%
covered in trees and has picnic spots and benches, as well as a play
fountain for kids. This is a neighborhood park.

It is surrounded by fancy condo (apartment) buildings on all sides,
and it is square-shaped, but it is clearly a leisure=park, not a
place=square.

So, what is the distinction? I would define it as: a place=square is
mostly a hardscaped (paved), open area, designed for events or markets
etc., while a park is mostly vegetated and designed for recreation,
leisure, picnics, etc.

And I think if your "square" is just a slightly wider road junction,
that can be mapped as junction=yes, though I admit we do not have such
things in the western USA or in Indonesia, so I can't claim to be an
expert on them.

But I don't see why a named intersection of 2 streets should be mapped
as a place=square  if it is mainly roads for vehicles, and not mainly
an open, paved pedestrian area where people can congregate. If the
roads cut right through the center, there may be not much area for
people to stand or walk, or it will be divided into 4 or more small
pieces. Rather junction=yes seems perfect for this, with the only
problem being that it is very popular in Asia but not very common in
Europe.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 3/22/20, Paul Allen <pla16021 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2020 at 13:23, Tom Pfeifer via Tagging <
> tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> I fully agree with Martin here. The place=* key is used in OSM to
>> indicate
>> that a particular
>> location is known by a particular name, and that is independent of
>> details
>> of the usage.
>>
>
> Ummmmm, the name is everything?  So if it's named "Foo square" it's a
> place=square
> even if it's not a place for people to congregate and it's not square?
> Take a look
> at Finch's Square (aka Finch Square):
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.08304&mlon=-4.65750#map=19/52.08304/-4.65750
> It's not square.  As rendered there appears to be more pedestrian space
> than there
> really is, it's basically roads with standard-size sidewalks. It's not a
> place for
> people to congregate and (possibly) have public functions, it's effectively
> the town
> bus station, as can be seen here: https://goo.gl/maps/UjG2pbgG1kRSBu1bA
> I wouldn't use place=square on it, even though the name is "Finch's
> Square."
>
>>
>> However OSM is more than rendering, it is about analysing the data. And
>> when I ask e.g. Nominatim
>> or Overpass where all the Squares in my town are, I wish them to be
>> included by the place=square tag
>> and not lose some where the place tag has been omitted just because they
>> are filled with a park.
>>
>
> So how does a mapper know when to use place=square?  Because the geometry
> is square?  They're not all perfect squares.  Because it has "Square" in
> its name?
> You can do a wildcard search in overpass for that, you don't need a
> place=square (but you'll also get the bus station above).  Or are we
> talking about
> a place where the public congregate? In which case we don't need
> place=square
> for a park (even if its shape is square) but we do need it for a paved
> pedestrian area
> that is effectively a public square, whatever the shape and whatever the
> name.
>
> --
> Paul
>