[Tagging] [Talk-us] Large fire perimeter tagging?

Sun Sep 27 07:51:57 UTC 2020

I am a bit dubious about value of updating fire=perimeter

It is something that changes extremely quickly, we should
not encourage people to survey perimeter of ACTIVE fire,
OSM is doomed to be strictly worse source of fire perimeter
than alternative sources....

> fire has absolutely enormous impact to what we do and might map here,
both present and future.  The aftermath of this fire (>85,000 acres this fire alone)
will last for decades, and for OSM to not reflect this in the map

Obviously, we should (try to) update map where situation changed.

Delete building that will not be rebuild (mark them as destroyed:building=*
until aerial imagery will update)
[deleting buildings and remapping them as they get reconstructed may
be viable in cases of heavy mapper presence]

Delete other permanently destroyed objects and so on.

> Do we have landcover tags which could replace landuse=forest
or natural=wood with something like natural=fire_scarred?

AFAIK nothing established, see
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-March/035435.html
for related discussion about wind damage.

Sep 24, 2020, 23:30 by steveaOSM at softworkers.com:

> I didn't get a single reply on this (see below), which I find surprising, especially as there are currently even larger fires that are more widespread all across the Western United States.
>
> I now ask if there are additional, appropriate polygons with tags I'm not familiar with regarding landcover that might be added to the map (as "landuse=forest" might be strictly true now only in a 'zoning' sense, as many of the actual trees that MAKE these forests have sadly burned down, or substantially so).
>
> Considering that there are literally millions and millions of acres of (newly) burned areas (forest, scrub, grassland, residential, commercial, industrial, public, private...), I'm surprised that OSM doesn't have some well-pondered and actual tags that reflect this situation.  My initial tagging of this (simply tagged, but enormous) polygon as "fire=perimeter" was coined on my part, but as I search wiki, taginfo and Overpass Turbo queries for similar data in the map, I come up empty.
>
> First, do others think it is important that we map these?  I say yes, as this fire has absolutely enormous impact to what we do and might map here, both present and future.  The aftermath of this fire (>85,000 acres this fire alone) will last for decades, and for OSM to not reflect this in the map (somehow, better bolstered than a simple, though huge, polygon tagged with fire=perimeter, start_date and end_date) seems OSM "cartographically misses something."  I know that HOT mappers map the "present- and aftermath-" of humanitarian disasters, I've HOT-participated myself.  So, considering the thousands of structures that burned (most of them homes), tens of thousands of acres which are burn-scarred and distinctly different than their landcover, millions of trees (yes, really) and even landuse is now currently tagged, I look for guidance — beyond the simple tag of fire=perimeter on a large polygon.
>
> Second, if we do choose to "better" map these incidents and results (they are life- and planet-altering on a grand scale) how might we choose to do that?  Do we have landcover tags which could replace landuse=forest or natural=wood with something like natural=fire_scarred?  (I'm making that up, but it or something like it could work).  How and when might we replace these with something less severe?  On the other hand, if it isn't appropriate that we map any of this, please say so.
>
> Thank you, especially any guidance offered from HOT contributors who have worked on post-fire humanitarian disasters,
>
> SteveA
> California (who has returned home after evacuation, relatively safe now that this fire is 100% contained)
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2020, at 7:20 PM, stevea <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>> Not sure if crossposting to talk-us is correct, but it is a "home list" for me.
>>
>> I've created a large fire perimeter in OSM from public sources, http://www.osm.org/way/842280873 .  This is a huge fire (sadly, there are larger ones right now, too), over 130 square miles, and caused the evacuation of every third person in my county (yes).  There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of structures, mostly residential homes, which have burned down and the event has "completely changed" giant redwoods in and the character of California's oldest state park (Big Basin).
>>
>> This perimeter significantly affects landuse, landcover and human patterns of movement and activity in this part of the world for a significant time to come.  It is a "major disaster."  I'm curious how HOT teams might delineate such a thing (and I've participated in a HOT fire team, mapping barns, water sources for helicopter dips and other human structures during a large fire near me), I've simply made a polygon tagged fire=perimeter, a name=* tag and a start_date.  I don't expect rendering, it's meant to be an "up to right about here" (inside the polygon is/was a burning fire, outside was no fire).  I wouldn't say it is more accurate than 20 to 50 meters on any edge, an "across a wide street" distance to be "off" is OK with me, considering this fire's size, but if a slight skew jiggles the whole thing into place better, feel free to nudge.  It's the tagging I'm interested in getting right, and perhaps wondering if or even that people enter gigantic fires that will significantly change landscape for some time into OSM, as I have done.  This will affect my local mapping, as a great much has burned.  Even after starting almost two weeks ago, as of 20 minutes ago this fire is 33% contained, with good, steady progress.  These men and women are heroes.
>>
>> To me, this is a significant polygon in my local mapping:  it is a "huge thing" that is a major feature on a map, especially right now.  I firmly believe it belongs in OSM for many reasons and want it tagged "correctly."  Yes, there are other maps that show this, I believe OSM should have these data, too, as this perimeter will affect much (in the real world) and much newer, updated mapping in OSM going forward.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200927/a55aaa51/attachment-0001.htm>