[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - catholic

[Yves]

I'm afraid looking for tags describing religions precisely, you may only find something as obscure as 'full_communion' for the less knowledgeable among us.
The reason you find some arguments here is that one tag is simpler than two, simply. 
Refining the tag by another one is not a bad idea for immediate adoption by data users (after all they simply have to ignore the sub-tag, what they'll likely do happily because it will go unnoticed).
Give a more precise value, on the other hand, the value may be not visible in your favorite map for a while, but it will be sooner than later because data users don't like blanks. 
Also, you avoid endless discussions about classification of religions over several level. 
Yves 


Le 10 août 2021 20:43:26 GMT+02:00, Guy Godfroy <guy.godfroy at gugod.fr> a écrit :
>I just had an idea, tell me what you think about it.
>
>Let's forget about the catholic=* key. Let's create a new key like full_communion=* (let's try to find better words) instead.
>
>That way, denomination=catholic is free and everybody can use it the way they want. If the key full_communion=* is there, it means that we are talking about the full communion of catholic church.
>
>full_communion=yes if unsure
>full_communion=roman,greek,whatever... when local church is known.
>
>That way there is no domination over the word catholic.
>
>10 août 2021 17:56:17 Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>:
>
>> 
>> On 10/08/2021 17:42, Guy Godfroy wrote:
>> So you think that grouping all rites that are in full communion as the
>> catholic church can lead to the expression of domination. I do not share
>> this vision. Actually I think the opposite, since the current use of
>> denomination=catholic (despite the wiki page advice) means implicitly
>> roman_catholic. To me, that is not fair to the other rites.
>> Yes, would express domination. As the semantic and use of "catholic" is not used in practice for the denominations considered part of the "union catholic church". So we shouldn't express this by using it as a key in OSM.
>> It seems to me you are somehow stuck on the perception that tag:denomination=catholic is an equivalent, or at least used as such in OSM, for tag:denomination=roman_catholic. I think we don't have any means to verify this. It might be a valid conclusion for a local situation, but not accurate for global use. What we should keep in mind is that on a global scale, any mapper should be able to map Catholic premises, being it a muslim, a protestant, a buddhist, atheist or whatever religious background and knowledge.
>> True, as said before, the wiki describes somehow vague that more specific denominations are preferred, but doesn't  say that it should be used or misused in that way. The denominations, being considered as part of the union Catholic church or not (where union Catholic church is also not consistently used across the denominations, but at least listed as such in our wiki). So I would suggest making the description and the use of "catholic", as alternative for the more specific values, more specific. By explicitly saying "not to be considered as alternative for any of the catholic denominations" but as an option to tag those situations where it is not clear, either by global consensus, local preference of the religious community, or because the mapper lacks the detailed knowledge or history for the religion.
>> 
>> An alternative is to completely discourage it's use at all when the mapper is in doubt or lacks detailed knowledge. Since assigning it might exclude, or offend churches like the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America] and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_Canada] One should keep in mind that, if you allow me to cite wikipedia, "The Catholic Church[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church] considers only those in full communion with the Holy See in Rome as Catholics. While recognising the valid episcopates and Eucharist of the Eastern Orthodox Church[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church] in most cases, it does not consider Protestant denominations such as Lutheran ones to be genuine churches and so uses the term "ecclesial communities" to refer to them.". The Catholic Union church as you refer to it, by this practice is actually claiming the use of the semantic word "catholic" for it's own practices, thus trying to dominate based on historical grounds. The very same practice which has led to it's demise and creation of different Christian denominations.
>> I'm afraid by doing so with a new "catholic" subkey you are going to incite the same competition, not resolving the current misuse or better said, inaccuracy, express the same practice which historically has proven not to be acceptable. Acceptable as in recognition of other religions and denominations within those religions.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Also, rites in full communion are accepting each other ; that means that
>> a traveling Catholic looking for a place of worship can totally go to a
>> catholic place with a different rite than they are used to, they won't
>> lack anything spiritually. Spending the rest of their life to a
>> different place with a different rite isn't morally wrong for any of the
>> churches that are in full communion, this isn't apostasy.
>> 
>> When a church isn't in full communion with the great catholic church,
>> then they both acknowledge that they are not in full communion. And even
>> is they may adopt term "catholic" as well, that won't be "catholic"
>> alone, for example the Old Catholic.
>> 
>> True, but if I understood your intentions correctly, is not the issue you are trying to resolve here, neither is it increased by the current tag:denomination=catholic. The issue is inaccuracy or misuse of "catholic", both for those lacking detailed knowledge, those considering themselves "catholic" but not part of the Great Catholic Church or Catholic Union Church and of course those who do and have good arguments to claim the term. But for those we have, both in and outside of OSM, provided a consensus with more specific names.
>> 
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> Bert Araali
>> 
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