[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Couloir 2

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Thu Feb 18 23:26:48 UTC 2021


Re: " A couloir is a narrow gully with vertical sides (usually of rock) and
a steep slope. Around here, the usual term is 'rock chute' rather than
'couloir', but the terms are nearly synonymous. Not every gully is inclined
enough, or has enough gradient, to be called a couloir or rock chute. Where
does the couloir end and the talus begin? Where there are no longer walls
on either side.  Which means that there's no longer a gap to be loaded with
snow in a crosswind, so you tend to get very different ice conditions."

Thank you, Kevin. That is the sort of explanation I was looking for, from
the proposal author or other proponents.

If the tag is defined to be:

"a small, narrow gully or valley between near-vertical rock cliffs, which
is steeply inclined upward"

That could be a definition that is specific enough to be used.

However, I get the impression that a small, steep stone canyon in a desert
(e.g. Utah, Arizona) would not necessarily be called a Couloir or "rock
chute" if it is never covered in stone or ice. Is that correct?

Does a couloir need to have a snow-covered portion during the cold season?
All the example images seem to have snow filling the "chute."

1) Is this gully a couloir:
https://www.americansouthwest.net/california/death_valley/golden-canyon-gully_l.html


2) What about these gullies:
https://cdn2.apstatic.com/photos/climb/105848296_medium_1557863064.jpg

3) Or this steep slot canyon:
https://www.roadtripryan.com/go/resources/content/utah/moab/sgr-canyon/user-submitted/xryancornia-1488896313480.jpg.pagespeed.ic.VxV1KW4RTx.jpg

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 2:21 PM Kevin Kenny <kevin.b.kenny at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 4:10 PM Volker Schmidt <voschix at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In addition, in many definitions "a couloir is a kind of gully" or even
>> "couloir or gully is...".
>> I fear that this a highly specialized term un mountaineering. I guess
>> couloirs exist in all alpine regions, but the term is used by only a very
>> small group of advanced mountain lovers.
>> To me it looks like a frequent feature, I have often seen in the European
>> Alps. How are these tagged at the moment, if they are tagged at all? All
>> couloirs seem to be the top end of larger features like screes. Where does
>> the couloir end, and where does the scree  begin?
>> I still have problems with this proposal, to be honest.
>>
>
> Frankly, I do, too, and I am a (relatively unskilled) mountaineer.
>
> Every couloir is a gully.  A couloir is a narrow gully with vertical sides
> (usually of rock) and a steep slope. Around here, the usual term is 'rock
> chute' rather than 'couloir', but the terms are nearly synonymous. Not
> every gully is inclined enough, or has enough gradient, to be called a
> couloir or rock chute.
>
> Where does the couloir end and the talus begin? Where there are no longer
> walls on either side.  Which means that there's no longer a gap to be
> loaded with snow in a crosswind, so you tend to get very different ice
> conditions.
>
> Couloirs/chutes offer climbing and ski routes in cliffy terrain, although
> they're best avoided in seasons where the snowpack is unstable; it's too
> hard to assess the avalanche hazard before committing to them.  A
> less-steep gully would also offer a good route, except that less-steep
> gullies typically don't exist in such places.
>
> The difference to me is that in winter, if someone calls a thing a couloir
> or chute, I expect to need a modicum of technical gear (at least ice axe
> and crampons), while if a mountaineer calls it a gully, I might be able to
> climb or descend it on snowshoes or spikes with just my ski poles.
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