[Tagging] Use of highway=track vs highway=service cemeteries, parks, allotment gardens, golf courses, and recreation areas

[stevea]

On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com> wrote:
> ... but many of use don't have this historical background, this global view. It does however illustrate how the current classification causes so much confusion, socio-economic, physical appearance, function, legally defined access restrictions, and it seems they are all mixed. Maybe we should go for a more general review, allow and describe the different nature of classifications or at least guidance in how they can and are intended to be used.

Thank you Bert for identifying the crux of what appears to be a serious, burgeoning problem in OSM:  that of confusion in classification (of highways) among various world regions.  (It's not new, it's been going on since the start of OSM).  This feels to me to be a potentially fruitful result of this thread.  Personally, I'm not sure what to do to immediately fix / help, as it continues to be a large mountain to climb, but again, identifying such a problem is often the first step in having any hope or chance of bettering the situation or outright solving it.  I did not know that the East Africa Tagging Guidelines existed, let alone offer important "how to tag around here" navigations for many volunteer mappers.  Clearly, these conversations exist and have been ongoing for some time, but (amazingly!) this is the first intersection of them (to my knowledge) with the tagging list and for that I am thankful to Bert, Joseph and others (many in the HOT group, it seems).  The "general review" that you suggest is an excellent next step IMO, although it will take significant resources I personally cannot contribute except to shine a bright light that "here continues to be a significant tagging challenge that needs to be addressed globally."  I wish us good luck here!  (A "task group?"  Bert connecting with people who are more familiar with the specifics of this broader problem than it appears to many on this list?  People on this list who have just had their perspective shifted and now know better how to address Bert's issues with aplomb and more-concrete answers?  I'm exhausting my personal resources here).

>>> (Tagging is) a very closed group, and that it gets hostile sometimes because some people who for long participate in it, feel like the current tagging and mapping behaviours, and wiki is their "work". In some sense it is of course, but the result of that work is not reflected in general good mapping and tagging behaviours.  So the "work" is not done, and it will never be, be more open and less hostile for the new emerging OSM mapping communities, views and interpretations, "scope" perceptions, without feeling abused or attacked for the hard work you have done so far, or what OSM has become. Due to the demographics of these new emerging groups, most of them young people, they have the perception that the work being done so far is not that great, that they can do better, new views are not heard, talk groups considered irrelevant and they rebel by doing what they want, because they can, they will if they find they are not being heard or respected. It has the potential to make this whole group, the whole of the OSM project irrelevant to them and to create their own fork, within or outside the OSM community.
>>> That's why we locally tend to map these as residential roads.

I get it that (especially younger) newcomers to OSM see what they see and think "this isn't that great, we can do better..." as I have experienced this before with mappers in my area in exactly the same way.  While it is work to do this, I (as an "elder" in your context) find that what I can and do share is this:  Many contributors doing our best have worked on this (map) for many years with the best of our abilities to speak with one voice.  Sometimes, what we have done looks scattered, or like it doesn't knit together well, or even worse, that it seems to not provide a good foundation for newer voices to contribute to the harmony (or "emerging harmony").  You identify problems and deficiencies and as you do, we all see there are indeed problems.  However, what OSM now has is the (solid) foundation that there is.  It is not perfect, but it is good, even very good.  Part of making it as good as it is and as excellent as it can be is finding ways to improve it in the context of how it gets improved, as difficult as that seems at first.  We would all like a map that has ready-made the tools, data and instructions that it takes to continue to map the globe as well as we can, but we must also recognize that for those of us who have the skills to not only map, but improve these other (infrastructural) aspects of OSM, we must improve its infrastructure where we can, too.  (Sometimes tagging changes, sometimes wiki modifications...).  Some newer users will be put off by this, others will embrace it and see it as an important part of the work that must be done to continue to build the map:  their (YOUR!) specific knowledge of streets and their sorts of traffic and use that they have (in YOUR part of the world, how people around YOU do things).  Yes, it is difficult when that differs significantly from how things are done now.  But an important and wonderful part of OSM is that it has the ability to grow into these in positive ways, with many voices mapping with harmony.  This takes work, work that is of a different nature than simply "read a wiki and learn, then go map" which is what many would like to believe they can do.  Many can.  Yet some, in some parts of the world, are more challenged than that.  So, this elder requests of you that you recognize that and please (very much please) learn how to build the sorts of structures it takes to do that.  We eagerly want to help with specifics, we want to answer your questions.  OSM (as this tagging list's participants) do not want to dismiss anybody with "go do this research..." when what you identify is that you are asking US for this research.  (And I apologize for having done that; I'll endeavor to better answer specific questions if, as and when I can).  Bert, in your case (in this list and threads), you are doing a superb job of helping the whole world help you and others in your part of the world do this better.  We are all one map in one world and while the "plain vanilla" methods of tagging work for a lot of us, there really are strawberry and pistachio flavors, too.  The (mildly unfortunate) thing is, a lot of people have gotten used to "vanilla" as "the only and single, one right way to do things."  This elder says "there are many flavors in the world."  We have methods to improve things so that everybody can not only enjoy their flavor of ice cream, but that a taste of another can be delicious and satisfying too.

I don't know how this will eventually play out in the specific case of "highway=track vs. highway=service (parks, golf courses...)" all over the world.  But we are on the right track when we hold all of the above in mind and know that the many flavors existing simultaneously (somehow) WILL win in the end.  It simply has to be this way, because this is how the world is, and OSM really is doing a good job of modeling the actual world.  Yes, we have some work to do to BETTER model some parts of the world that don't quite fit into the same model as other parts, this is simply part of being a global project.  And as vanilla is no "better" than strawberry, nor vice versa, we must simply co-exist — because there ARE these various flavors of how the world is and how OSM models it.  I know this is much easier said than done.  But sometimes saying it is the first, best, early step we can do to get there.  I'm glad we appear to be doing some of that here and I thank all who both have done it before and recognize that it is hard work.

>> In our cultures, we ask the elders to get historical context, and they are very willing to help us.  The answers might not be simple, might be long and might be not always all revealing, but the elders at least provide them. Here, you get hostile answers by just go there and there, use tool A, B, C and D to find out, don't ask us because we are tired of providing the same context and answers over and over again. We can't, and that is why we ask, and that is if you want to be an open community, at least try to answer these kind of questions. I don't want to be referred to yet another help channel, another tool, spend days and days to research OSM's history, because I can't. Not from just an economical perspective but many of us also from an educational and cultural background are unable to do this.

I hope I stand tall in that tradition here (even as there is much more work to do), and ask that others here do so, too.  Such respect is crucial.  What Bert identifies is a very important aspect of how the respectful transfer of "knowledge" and "how" happens.  Period.  Not simply in his culture or part of the world, but "period, full stop."  These are valuable traditions everywhere because, simply, "they work."  They deserve our respect.  In OSM there is every reason to continue these traditions.

We can help each other greatly by both recognizing this context of knowledge transmission and respecting that there might be some rough edges at understanding that sometimes, additional words, time or clarity can be required before the right sorts of questions are asked to get to the right sorts of answers or guidance.  We must offer wide latitude of cross-cultural patience and allow wonder and awe (that's my experience with such things) as they happen.  For example, even staying within my own locality, one (younger) group of local mappers had such a profound difference of understanding of the map from me that even though these differences might be explained as simply "generational," we were all able to learn from each other, and in the end, not only did the map become a better map, but wiki were improved, skills were deepened rather broadly and understanding became mutual, although, this wasn't always easy and it did take time.  So, it can be done, and people can end up becoming friends rather than contentious with each other!  Listening skills, asking for help in ways that might seem different or uncomfortable, providing answers that might seem obvious at first or take a great deal of thought, dialog and research are all important.  Be open-hearted and listen, please.

I wish the focus to swing back to Bert's specific questions, as I've zoomed out pretty far and want to zoom back in to help him.  I think we all do!  Thanks in advance to all here who can push this forward in ways I can't.