[Tagging] Making public transit tagging orthogonal across the map

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Fri Jan 1 21:01:45 UTC 2021

Re: " route numbers are not names"

We have 82nd Avenue in Portland, and "First Street" is almost as common a
name as "Main Street".

If you live on CA-263 outside of Yreka your address is something like "3700
Highway 263" and you tell people to take "highway two-sixty-three" to get
to your house so isn't the name of your road "Highway 263"?

While I can understand defining a route as separate from the road itself, I
think it should be remembered that most roads and streets (which we map as
ways with highway=primary/secondary/etc) have a name, even if that name is
similar to the reference number.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 10:47 AM Paul Johnson <baloo at ursamundi.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM Minh Nguyen <minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us>
> wrote:
>> Vào lúc 23:26 2020-12-31, Paul Johnson đã viết:
>> > These shifts from name=* should happen, and will convey the same
>> > information ultimately in a way that's easier to tell in existing data
>> > consumers (such as Osmand and OpenTripPlanner) what to expect to see on
>> > an approaching transit vehicle in reality with minimal changes, if any,
>> > to existing major data consumers.
>> The public transit scheme shares a lot of keys with other kinds of
>> routes, like road routes, so we should keep those use cases in mind when
>> imposing constraints on what the keys can contain. Continuing this
>> discussion on the wiki will make the key sharing more apparent because
>> pages are organized around keys and tags rather than entire tagging
>> schemes.
> Well, route numbers are not names, and even the road route scheme moved
> away from reproducing the ref in the name field.  This is A Good Thing.
>> > official_name=* shifts to name=*, which should (IETF definition) match
>> > the route name on the headsign, preferably mixed case even if it
>> appears
>> > ALLCAPS on the headsign.  So for the examples above, this would be
>> > "Forest Grove", "Burnside", noname=yes, and "Sunset Highway" in these
>> > examples.
>> >
>> > ref=* or colour=* should exactly match the alphanumeric or color
>> > reference for the route, with colour accepting the existing color
>> > descriptions.  So like ref=57, ref=20, colour=blue and ref=58X from the
>> > above examples.  Both are optional if the ground truth lacks these
>> features.
>> Some wiki pages have recommended sticking to the commonly designated
>> color instead of the precise visual color. However, I don't think that's
>> the case in practice -- seems like mappers couldn't resist geeking out
>> about RGB colors. Hopefully those are routes where the color isn't the
>> primary means of identification. [1][2]
> RGB colors are in the GTFS spec so I'm unsurprised by this.
>> > to=* is optional and should exactly match what is on the full route
>> > headsign to the destination, mandatory if there is no from=* or
>> > direction=*  For example, if the blue train above continued to Hatfield
>> > Government Center (the end of the line), and the headsign says
>> > "Hillsboro", then to=Hillsboro is the correct tag.  This is not the
>> same
>> > as Hillsboro Transit Center, one stop east, which would be headsigned
>> as
>> > "Hillsboro TC" instead, and would therefore get to=Hillsboro TC instead
>> > if the train terminates there instead of going the extra two blocks to
>> > Hatfield Government Center (aka Hillsboro).
>> >
>> > from=* is optional and should exactly match what is on the full route
>> > headsign to the destination, mandatory if there is no to=* or
>> > direction=*.  This would only come up in transit systems that expect
>> you
>> > to know the routes in advance instead of being able to infer based on
>> > where they're going to.  For example, Tulsa Transit's 114 Sand Springs
>> > line.  Trimet would sign this as "114 SAND SPRINGS / 114 Sand Springs
>> > Walmart" but Tulsa Transit signs this on three lines as "114 CHARLES
>> > PAGE BLVD / 114 From Downtown / 🚌 114 🚌" for reasons beyond
>> > comprehension.  In this case, this would get ref=114, name=Charles Page
>> > Boulevard, from=Downtown.  Therefore, from=* would be somewhat uncommon.
>> I'm not confident that from=* would be uncommon. Plenty of commuter rail
>> routes start at a different station at different times of day, making
>> the origin a pretty important piece of information, if not on headsigns
>> then on timetables. I'm not saying from=* should be mandatory, but we
>> should expect editors to support it just as well as to=*, so that data
>> consumers can choose whether to display them depending on the context.
> What I'm saying is one of the three is mandatory, since routes tend to be
> signed with one of the three.
>>  > So far out of the cities I've lived in or been to and used public
>>  > transport, all should be able to fit into the above in some way.  I
>>  > welcome to hear about routes that don't, in order to shake out this
>>  > proposal before we get into some really entrenched problems like
>> lanes=*
>>  > not literally meaning the actual number of lanes on the road, as is
>>  > intuitive.
>> At a glance, I think your suggestions are pretty reasonable. Apart from
>> the name format and the lane count thing, have any of the other points
>> been controversial in the past?
> I'm not even sure the name format is particularly controversial given that
> it's been long understood that the name is only the name, and name is not
> ref.
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