[Tagging] Cartpath RFC

Seth Deegan jayandseth at gmail.com
Sun Jan 3 02:47:48 UTC 2021


About the Australian result, I've communicated and confirmed from
Australians that "golf cart" is the most popular term via the OSM World
Discord server
<https://discord.com/channels/413070382636072960/790139356903505951/795110656595460156>
.

Also, the Google Trends result has some search biases that I didn't account
for:

   - Volkswagen Golf car model
   <https://www.google.com/search?q=golf+car+australia>
   - Car racing clubs

Corrected search shows an overwhelming usage for golf_cart. I used the golf
category as well to account for bias:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=261&q=golf%20car,golf%20cart

I'm now starting to lean back to keeping golf_cart.

Don't want to start a second conversation, but why do we use British
English when we should probably just use the most popular term in general
globally?

lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>


On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 7:55 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:

> Honestly, the more I do research on it the more I get confused.
>
> Just from the basic search "golf car vs golf cart"
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=golf+car+vs+golf+cart> I've summarized
> this information from looking through the results:
>
>    - Golf manufacturers in Britain seem to call them golf cars
>    - Americans call them golf carts
>    - Americans *do* have "golf cars
>    <https://www.baby-boomer-retirement.com/2013/08/golf-carts-vs-golf-cars-for-retirees.html>".
>    They are basically more car-like versions of golf carts, some able to go up
>    to 50 mph and can have a variety of features.
>    - Here's a technical analysis <https://golfcarmaven.com/car-or-cart/>
>    comparing the terms
>
> And then what's weirder is the terminology statistics:
>
>    - Google Trends
>    <https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=golf%20car,golf%20cart,club%20car,golf%20buggy> (basically
>    all 4 terms have an equal share in Australia?!)
>    - Google Books Ngram Viewer
>    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=golf+cart%2Cgolf+car%2Cclub+car%2Cgolf+buggy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgolf%20cart%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgolf%20car%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cclub%20car%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgolf%20buggy%3B%2Cc0> (golf
>    cart wins easily)
>
> I'd definitely like to hear some feedback from people from other places
> around the world, as Joseph asked.
>
> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 7:22 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm an American, so I've only heard of "golf carts." Can we confirm that
>> the term "golf car" is widely used in Britain and also in other countries
>> where British-influenced English is spoken, e.g. India, Australia,
>> Singapore, New Zealand etc?
>>
>> The British dictionaries I can find mainly mention "golf cart" or "golf
>> buggy", and have no results for "golf car":
>>
>> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/golf-cart?q=golf+cart
>> https://www.lexico.com/definition/golf_cart
>> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/british/golf-cart
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/golf_cart
>>
>> In this British English corporus there is only 1 results for "golf car",
>> but 11 results for "golf cart", and 2 results for "golf buggy".
>> https://www.english-corpora.org/bnc/
>>
>> It's possible that "golf buggy" is somewhat common in Britain, but "golf
>> car" seems quite rare.
>>
>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 4:44 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Totally agree it's silly. But, standards and uniformity should
>>> probably be adopted whenever most convenient (now).
>>>
>>> The sooner this change is approved:
>>>
>>>    - the less features will be tagged with the current golf_cart=* tag
>>>    - the less issues we'll run into in the future about mappers being
>>>    confused about why two proposals approved about a year between each other
>>>    use different terminology
>>>
>>> I'm not really sure how to write up a depreciation schedule but what you
>>> described sounds good to me.
>>> Could you edit the proposal yourself and add what you described Brian?
>>>
>>> *Also lol:*
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:21 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <
>>> zelonewolf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personally I think it's pretty silly to have to change the approved key
>>>> golf_cart to golf_car for the sake of British English, especially since
>>>> there seemed to be no problem when it was proposed and approved[1] in
>>>> 2019.  I assume at this point that there are data consumers that use the
>>>> 80,000 current usages of golf_cart=*.
>>>>
>>>> If we must change the key name just for the sake of changing the key
>>>> name  ::eye roll:: , my hope is that this change would include a
>>>> deprecation schedule that gives data consumers time to adapt to the new
>>>> key.  That should include a mechanical edit to dual-tag existing usages, a
>>>> specified period of time where mappers are instructed to dual-tag with both
>>>> tags, and a scheduled date in the future on which a second mechanical edit
>>>> would remove the original tag.  Perhaps 6 months or a year would be a
>>>> sufficient time window.
>>>>
>>>> Or, we could just leave the golf_cart=* tag alone and live with the
>>>> fact that it isn't the Queen's English.
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:golf_cart
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:53 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The golf car path proposal about replacing the current tagging scheme
>>>>> for mapping golf car paths has been updated.
>>>>>
>>>>> *The changes are:*
>>>>>
>>>>>    - highway=cart_path -> *highway=golf_car_path*  (Explanation
>>>>>    <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path#Why_such_a_long_value.3F>)
>>>>>
>>>>>    - Depreciate the current golf_cart=* access tag and replace with*
>>>>>    golf_car=** (Explanation
>>>>>    <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path#golf_cart.3D.2A_-.3E_golf_car.3D.2A>
>>>>>    )
>>>>>
>>>>> *Proposal: *
>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path
>>>>>
>>>>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 7:21 AM Jez Nicholson <jez.nicholson at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I need a really strong proposal to convince me to vote
>>>>>> for a new top-level highway tag. I would want something that describes the
>>>>>> unique characteristics of the road rather than it being specifically for
>>>>>> golf carts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For a sub-tag below highway=service I need a less-strong argument.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, 00:13 Minh Nguyen, <minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vào lúc 18:10 2020-12-23, Minh Nguyen đã viết:
>>>>>>> > I've left out a lot of details, but hopefully this helps get
>>>>>>> people up
>>>>>>> > to speed about why the proposal takes the rare step of introducing
>>>>>>> a new
>>>>>>> > highway=* value. There's an interesting tension here between the
>>>>>>> needs
>>>>>>> > of editor, renderer, and router developers, but hopefully an
>>>>>>> amicable
>>>>>>> > solution is possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Aside from the technical considerations, apparently some places in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> U.S. go to great lengths to make golf carts a first-class mode of
>>>>>>> transportation. Peachtree City, Georgia, has a citywide network of
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> 90 miles of numbered golf cart paths and over 10,000 resident-owned
>>>>>>> golf
>>>>>>> carts replete with vehicle registration tags. Like most cycleways in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> U.S., the cart paths are multi-use trails that also permit
>>>>>>> pedestrians
>>>>>>> and cyclists. [1][2]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Currently, the city's cart paths are all tagged as highway=footway
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the golf_cart key, but a dedicated highway=* tag would be more
>>>>>>> accurate.
>>>>>>> Peachtree City may be an outlier, but there are plenty of other
>>>>>>> examples
>>>>>>> of golf cart communities where these paths would be considered
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> more than just a feature of the golf course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://peachtree-city.org/216/Paths-Golf-Carts
>>>>>>> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peachtree_City,_Georgia#Golf_carts
>>>>>>> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/62098675
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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