[Tagging] Why do we use British English? (Was: Cartpath RFC)

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Sun Jan 3 04:43:01 UTC 2021


Re: "why do we use British English when we should probably just use the
most popular term in general globally?"

British English is more common globally in most cases, and especially in
Continental Europe which still has the largest OpenStreetMap communities.
And since the dialects of English which are spoken in South Asia are based
on British English, the largest number of 1st and 2nd language speakers of
English will use British-influenced terminology (There are about as many
English speakers in South Asia as there are in the USA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
).

But I agree that it sometimes makes the most sense to use"the most popular
term in general globally", for example when South Asia, Australia, North
America and Continental Europe all use a different term than what is common
in England, or in the cases when the British term is ambiguous.

This is already true for "sidewalks". These are usually called "pavements"
in England, but since that key would be ambiguous and the term "sidewalk"
is well-known in many countries, the key in OpenStreetMap is sidewalk=* -
see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sidewalk

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:50 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:

> About the Australian result, I've communicated and confirmed from
> Australians that "golf cart" is the most popular term via the OSM World
> Discord server
> <https://discord.com/channels/413070382636072960/790139356903505951/795110656595460156>
> .
>
> Also, the Google Trends result has some search biases that I didn't
> account for:
>
>    - Volkswagen Golf car model
>    <https://www.google.com/search?q=golf+car+australia>
>    - Car racing clubs
>
> Corrected search shows an overwhelming usage for golf_cart. I used the
> golf category as well to account for bias:
> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?cat=261&q=golf%20car,golf%20cart
>
> I'm now starting to lean back to keeping golf_cart.
>
> Don't want to start a second conversation, but why do we use British
> English when we should probably just use the most popular term in general
> globally?
>
> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 7:55 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Honestly, the more I do research on it the more I get confused.
>>
>> Just from the basic search "golf car vs golf cart"
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=golf+car+vs+golf+cart> I've summarized
>> this information from looking through the results:
>>
>>    - Golf manufacturers in Britain seem to call them golf cars
>>    - Americans call them golf carts
>>    - Americans *do* have "golf cars
>>    <https://www.baby-boomer-retirement.com/2013/08/golf-carts-vs-golf-cars-for-retirees.html>".
>>    They are basically more car-like versions of golf carts, some able to go up
>>    to 50 mph and can have a variety of features.
>>    - Here's a technical analysis <https://golfcarmaven.com/car-or-cart/>
>>    comparing the terms
>>
>> And then what's weirder is the terminology statistics:
>>
>>    - Google Trends
>>    <https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=golf%20car,golf%20cart,club%20car,golf%20buggy> (basically
>>    all 4 terms have an equal share in Australia?!)
>>    - Google Books Ngram Viewer
>>    <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=golf+cart%2Cgolf+car%2Cclub+car%2Cgolf+buggy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cgolf%20cart%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgolf%20car%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cclub%20car%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgolf%20buggy%3B%2Cc0> (golf
>>    cart wins easily)
>>
>> I'd definitely like to hear some feedback from people from other places
>> around the world, as Joseph asked.
>>
>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 7:22 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
>> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm an American, so I've only heard of "golf carts." Can we confirm that
>>> the term "golf car" is widely used in Britain and also in other countries
>>> where British-influenced English is spoken, e.g. India, Australia,
>>> Singapore, New Zealand etc?
>>>
>>> The British dictionaries I can find mainly mention "golf cart" or "golf
>>> buggy", and have no results for "golf car":
>>>
>>> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/golf-cart?q=golf+cart
>>> https://www.lexico.com/definition/golf_cart
>>> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/british/golf-cart
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/golf_cart
>>>
>>> In this British English corporus there is only 1 results for "golf car",
>>> but 11 results for "golf cart", and 2 results for "golf buggy".
>>> https://www.english-corpora.org/bnc/
>>>
>>> It's possible that "golf buggy" is somewhat common in Britain, but "golf
>>> car" seems quite rare.
>>>
>>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 4:44 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Totally agree it's silly. But, standards and uniformity should
>>>> probably be adopted whenever most convenient (now).
>>>>
>>>> The sooner this change is approved:
>>>>
>>>>    - the less features will be tagged with the current golf_cart=* tag
>>>>    - the less issues we'll run into in the future about mappers being
>>>>    confused about why two proposals approved about a year between each other
>>>>    use different terminology
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really sure how to write up a depreciation schedule but what
>>>> you described sounds good to me.
>>>> Could you edit the proposal yourself and add what you described Brian?
>>>>
>>>> *Also lol:*
>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>>
>>>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:21 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <
>>>> zelonewolf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Personally I think it's pretty silly to have to change the approved
>>>>> key golf_cart to golf_car for the sake of British English, especially since
>>>>> there seemed to be no problem when it was proposed and approved[1] in
>>>>> 2019.  I assume at this point that there are data consumers that use the
>>>>> 80,000 current usages of golf_cart=*.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we must change the key name just for the sake of changing the key
>>>>> name  ::eye roll:: , my hope is that this change would include a
>>>>> deprecation schedule that gives data consumers time to adapt to the new
>>>>> key.  That should include a mechanical edit to dual-tag existing usages, a
>>>>> specified period of time where mappers are instructed to dual-tag with both
>>>>> tags, and a scheduled date in the future on which a second mechanical edit
>>>>> would remove the original tag.  Perhaps 6 months or a year would be a
>>>>> sufficient time window.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, we could just leave the golf_cart=* tag alone and live with the
>>>>> fact that it isn't the Queen's English.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:golf_cart
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 6:53 PM Seth Deegan <jayandseth at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The golf car path proposal about replacing the current tagging scheme
>>>>>> for mapping golf car paths has been updated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *The changes are:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - highway=cart_path -> *highway=golf_car_path*  (Explanation
>>>>>>    <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path#Why_such_a_long_value.3F>)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - Depreciate the current golf_cart=* access tag and replace with*
>>>>>>    golf_car=** (Explanation
>>>>>>    <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path#golf_cart.3D.2A_-.3E_golf_car.3D.2A>
>>>>>>    )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Proposal: *
>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/golf_car_path
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lectrician1 <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 7:21 AM Jez Nicholson <
>>>>>> jez.nicholson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally, I need a really strong proposal to convince me to vote
>>>>>>> for a new top-level highway tag. I would want something that describes the
>>>>>>> unique characteristics of the road rather than it being specifically for
>>>>>>> golf carts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For a sub-tag below highway=service I need a less-strong argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, 00:13 Minh Nguyen, <
>>>>>>> minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vào lúc 18:10 2020-12-23, Minh Nguyen đã viết:
>>>>>>>> > I've left out a lot of details, but hopefully this helps get
>>>>>>>> people up
>>>>>>>> > to speed about why the proposal takes the rare step of
>>>>>>>> introducing a new
>>>>>>>> > highway=* value. There's an interesting tension here between the
>>>>>>>> needs
>>>>>>>> > of editor, renderer, and router developers, but hopefully an
>>>>>>>> amicable
>>>>>>>> > solution is possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aside from the technical considerations, apparently some places in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> U.S. go to great lengths to make golf carts a first-class mode of
>>>>>>>> transportation. Peachtree City, Georgia, has a citywide network of
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> 90 miles of numbered golf cart paths and over 10,000 resident-owned
>>>>>>>> golf
>>>>>>>> carts replete with vehicle registration tags. Like most cycleways
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> U.S., the cart paths are multi-use trails that also permit
>>>>>>>> pedestrians
>>>>>>>> and cyclists. [1][2]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Currently, the city's cart paths are all tagged as highway=footway
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the golf_cart key, but a dedicated highway=* tag would be more
>>>>>>>> accurate.
>>>>>>>> Peachtree City may be an outlier, but there are plenty of other
>>>>>>>> examples
>>>>>>>> of golf cart communities where these paths would be considered
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> more than just a feature of the golf course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://peachtree-city.org/216/Paths-Golf-Carts
>>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peachtree_City,_Georgia#Golf_carts
>>>>>>>> [3] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/62098675
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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