[Tagging] tagging for red-turn signage for cyclists

[Sebastian Gürtler]

I really would recommend to read the wiki-page to

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=traffic_signals



>> On 10 Apr 2022, at 12:06, Georges Dutreix via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>> Important to have in mind that it may be right, left, straight and whatever combination :
>>
>> https://www.lyon.fr/deplacements/les-modes-doux/panneaux-m12-les-cedez-le-passage-pour-cyclistes
>>
>>
>> IMHO relations seems really heavy to see and maintain.
>
> IMHO just stating give way for cyclists doesn’t automatically imply the traffic lights don’t count for them (in OpenStreetMap tags, the sign does apparently state this, but IMHO the conclusion is we should have a different tag then give_way:bicycle to ma clear it is not about give way alone, albeit looking very similar to a give way sign). Because give way signs are also quite common on traffic lights in some areas, where they only go into effect when the traffic lights are off (according to the general rule that traffic lights overrule traffic signs)
>
> Cheers Martin


The signs that are described on the webpage of Lyon definitely don't say
that someone should give way to the cyclists but that the cyclist have
to give way to the others, pedestrians as well as vehicles. The special
feature is that the meaning of a red light is changed from a mandatory
stop to a "give way".

For this situation we have already

red_turn:[right/left ..]:bicycle=yes at highway=traffic_signals

(plus a draft for a proposal from 2016
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/turn_signals, that
hasn't been changed in the last 6 years but is linked to in the wiki as
"newer": traffic_signals:turn:bicycle:forward=all|right_on_red - I don't
favour that, too many features in one single tag.)

So I agree, that a relation usually wouldn't be necessary. And in fact:
the signs don't make up a restriction. The restriction relation is a
tagging scheme which is most useful for routing applications. The above
mentioned signs don't make up restrictions in routing, just may reduce
the estimated time at a traffic light node for bicycles. So it really
could be useful as additional tag at the node highway=traffic_signals.


Am 10.04.22 um 12:19 schrieb kaartjesman at mykolab.com:
> On zaterdag 9 april 2022 11:48:16 CEST mcliquid wrote:
>> The expression is a right-hand drive permission at red lights
>> for cyclists.
> This is an implied structure for most of the intersections in
> Holland.
> Naturally, in Holland people get born with a bicycle attached, so
> this is normal for them.
>
> Either way, the point of the traffic light seems to be special and
> explicit to people there, possibly due to some past bad
> experiences.
> But the situation doesn't need to be tagged on an International
> map as its quite normal to allow cyclists to make the short turn
> without traffic-light permission.

The discussion here is meant on how to tag the signs, if an allowance to
turn right on red traffic lights is implied in some countries it won't
be necessary to tag that. Btw, in unlucky circumstances you can also
lose your driving license if you turn right at red traffic lights even
riding a bike in Germany, if it isn't explicitly allowed. (And of course
it is relatively normal to do it anyway, if the people like the risk and
take a look for possible police).

Cheers Sebastian