[Tagging] An after-burner meta-discussion

Tue Feb 15 16:46:32 UTC 2022

I'd like to encourage everyone who hasn't to read about the IETF's process
on working toward consensus that stevea and others have linked to:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7282

The IETF process specifically addresses most of the challenges we've
encountered here, including how to work toward viable paths forward when
those participating are only a small fraction of those affected, "ballot
stuffing", and actual consensus versus capitulation among others. While the
global and asynchronous nature of OSM precludes some of the precise
in-person techniques used in IETF working groups, I feel that we'd do well
to stand on their shoulders and leverage their well-tested process with
modifications to make it practical to our context.

As David notes, the IETF has a formal role for a "chair" of a working group
that is critical to the process by moderating discussion and ensuring that
valid technical arguments get addressed even in the future absence of those
who originally raised them. Getting our own "chair" role
volunteered/selected/trained for each tagging proposal might not be easy,
but shouldn't be insurmountable. Chairs have a duty to the process rather
than the outcome, requiring work and engagement, but not necessarily
particular expertise on the topic/tagging at hand. I'd hope that anyone who
volunteers to "chair" a particular proposal/working group would step back
and take that neutral moderation role seriously -- and weigh in with gusto
on *other* proposals that they aren't chairing.

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 10:50 AM Zeke Farwell <ezekielf at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 3:36 AM David Marchal via Tagging <
> tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> The french OSM community recently changed its forum software for a
>> Discourse instance, which allow such interactions. Could this help the
>> debates? I think so.
>>
>
> For anyone who isn't already aware, a Discourse
> <https://www.discourse.org/> instance is being set up at
> community.openstreetmap.org to serve the global OSM community.  The
> instance currently running there is for testing and the data will be
> deleted before the official launch, but everyone should feel free to
> explore the platform to see how it works.  You sign in with your main
> osm.org account.  It looks like the Operations Team is working through some
> technical issues
> <https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/377#issuecomment-979917530>
> that need to be resolved before launch.  The Discourse motto is "Civilized
> discussion for your community" and I am hopeful that this platform can help
> move things in that direction when it launches.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 10:02 AM bkil <bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This would surely not apply to every page in the wiki, but only under
>> a designated prefix used just for those discussions where no consensus
>> could be achieved in the past.
>>
>> We could also create an improved JavaScript based mediawiki
>> editor/viewer to do this consistently as well.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 3:54 PM David Marchal via Tagging
>> <tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm afraid that we can't expect all editors to respect this discipline:
>> there will always be people which will not read/pay attention/care. Would
>> your system still work if many contributors don't respect these rules?
>> >
>> > Regards.
>> >
>> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>> >
>> > ------- Original Message -------
>> >
>> > bkil <bkil.hu+Aq at gmail.com> schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Februar 2022 um
>> 15:41:
>> >
>> > > Friendica supports likes & dislikes. But you could simulate this on
>> > >
>> > > mediawiki as well with a little discipline:
>> > >
>> > > -   factor each atomic (usually a few sentences) thought into a
>> separate
>> > >
>> > >     subsection
>> > > -   open a like & dislike paragraph after each subsection where
>> reacting
>> > >
>> > >     people could add their name
>> > >
>> > >     On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 3:31 PM David Marchal via Tagging
>> > >
>> > >     tagging at openstreetmap.org wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > AFAIK, the "thank" action only notifies the author; one could see
>> that as an attaboy: the thanked person knows that someone liked his/her
>> edit, but that's all. Hardly a reputation system…
>> > > >
>> > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>> > > >
>> > > > ------- Original Message -------
>> > > >
>> > > > Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdreist at gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag,
>> 15. Februar 2022 um 12:46:
>> > > >
>> > > > Am Di., 15. Feb. 2022 um 11:37 Uhr schrieb David Marchal via
>> Tagging tagging at openstreetmap.org:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I simply wanted to add that the "humming" might be achieve with
>> the Emoji system I talked about: the contributor/chair/moderator wanting a
>> hum on a point asks a question and tell "React with 👍 or 👎 (or with 1 to
>> 5 ⭐, ⭐ meaning you strongly disagree, ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ meaning that you strongly
>> agree) to see where we can try to lead this debate". The RFC you pointed
>> gives sound advice about how to manage this result.
>> > > >
>> > > > Some time ago, I proposed to add a simple rating system for wiki
>> edits (thumbs up / thumbs down), so that consensus with edits could be
>> measured and authors could gain or loose reputation. Later a system was
>> implemented which allows to thank the author of a wiki edit. Unfortunately,
>> as stats are not visible (you cannot see how many thanks an authors has
>> received, neither in total nor for a specific edit, nor does it seem the
>> authors themselves are notified, or maybe nobody ever thanked me), and as
>> there is still no way to express dissent with an edit (apart from
>> discussing it and or reverting it), it currently does not seem to do
>> anything.
>> > > >
>> > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/dieterdreist/diary/44271
>> > > >
>> > > > Cheers,
>> > > >
>> > > > Martin
>> > > >
>> > > > Tagging mailing list
>> > > >
>> > > > Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> > > >
>> > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> > >
>> > > Tagging mailing list
>> > >
>> > > Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> > >
>> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Tagging mailing list
>> > Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20220215/d246d3af/attachment-0001.htm>