[Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for

[robin at onwheelsapp.com]

Hi everyone,

So if I understand correct most parking spaces are mapped as polygons?
For the moment our app can only use node tags and also add new info as a
node tag.
I don't see the problem to add a width and length tag to a parking_space
node,
because this is more detailed info about the dimensions of a parking space,
that is
actually measured by people on site with a measure tape. I know it's kind
off double
info, but the polygon data is not accurate enough to really use for our app.
If other mappers would add these width and length tags not correctly our
users will
verify this info and correct it if not accurate. 

Are there other apps that add info about parking places as polygons and
extract dimension
info from the polygon data?

For us it would be easy to make a node parking_space and add the tags width=
and length=.
Then we have the exact location of the parking place in our app. An example
of the info we
would add to this node:

amenity=parking_space
wheelchair=yes
capacity:disabled=
orientation=
width=
length=
surface=



Robin Julien
On Wheels










-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: tagging-request at openstreetmap.org <tagging-request at openstreetmap.org> 
Verzonden: zondag 14 mei 2023 20:37
Aan: tagging at openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Tagging Digest, Vol 164, Issue 10

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: office=healthcare deprecated or bad documentation ?
      (Andy Townsend)
   2. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
      wheelchair users (Tobias Knerr)
   3. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
      wheelchair users (Yves)
   4. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
      wheelchair users (Alan Mackie)
   5. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
      wheelchair users (Tobias Knerr)
   6. Re: Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking spaces for
      wheelchair users (Marc_marc)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 11:34:16 +0100
From: Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com>
To: tagging at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] office=healthcare deprecated or bad
	documentation ?
Message-ID: <2ff04bf3-1315-2a29-e415-aea306f1205d at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 12/05/2023 21:16, Marc_marc wrote:
> Hello,
>
> in 2020, the wiki was changed [|] for this tag (I don't remeber that 
> we talk about it, no link in the comment of the change)
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:office%3Dhealthca
> re&diff=prev&oldid=2062630
>
See also discussion at
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/deprecated-features-reason/99048

It's been changed back, and I asked why someone thought that the tag was
"discouraged" (which might have been part of the original problem).

Best Regards,

Andy





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 17:15:33 +0200
From: Tobias Knerr <osm at tobias-knerr.de>
To: tagging at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
	spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID: <cc666245-8864-2eba-0e96-f4c4fbc90eed at tobias-knerr.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?

Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of
amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes it
possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple calculations and
it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 19:59:22 +0200
From: Yves <ycai at mailbox.org>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>,  Tobias Knerr <osm at tobias-knerr.de>,
	tagging at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
	spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID: <3909CE57-1AEF-45F3-A439-1D23FFA2A279 at mailbox.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8



Le 14 mai 2023 17:15:33 GMT+02:00, Tobias Knerr <osm at tobias-knerr.de> a
?crit?:
>On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
>> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?
>
>Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of
amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes it
possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple calculations and
it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.
>
These two suggestions made me laugh a bit: everybody is not super accurate
in drawing polygons, imagery has a resolution and I doubt a lot of mappers
go trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape in their hands. 
On the contrary, estimating a width from one's car when you happen to really
need to know is probably not far-fetched. 
I'd say yes to such a tag. 
Regards,
Yves 



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 19:11:57 +0100
From: Alan Mackie <aamackie at gmail.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
	<tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
	spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID:
	<CAEPvJGo+dCToCmdgKAu8M7vE3YS8=uCzV75qsa0yXMVvWO8gmg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Sun, 14 May 2023 at 19:04, Yves via Tagging <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
wrote:

>
>
> Le 14 mai 2023 17:15:33 GMT+02:00, Tobias Knerr <osm at tobias-knerr.de> a
> ?crit :
> >On 13.05.23 at 18:28 Marc_marc wrote:
> >> why not just add this information as amenity=parking_space geometry ?
> >
> >Indeed, amenity=parking_space is usually mapped as a polygon (over 94% of
> amenity=parking_space tags are on ways, according to Taginfo). This makes
> it possible to determine the dimensions with relatively simple
calculations
> and it seems undesirable to duplicate this information as tags.
> >
> These two suggestions made me laugh a bit: everybody is not super accurate
> in drawing polygons, imagery has a resolution and I doubt a lot of mappers
> go trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape in their hands.
> On the contrary, estimating a width from one's car when you happen to
> really need to know is probably not far-fetched.
>
StreetComplete recently split their measuring tool out into its own
dedicated app recently so that is also an option if you're on Android:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.westnordost.streetmeasure

I imagine iOS has similar tools with its AR stuff.
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 20:37:19 +0200
From: Tobias Knerr <osm at tobias-knerr.de>
To: Yves <ycai at mailbox.org>, "Tag discussion, strategy and related
	tools" <tagging at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
	spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID: <1f6369b7-80e2-e82b-085c-5b5356761444 at tobias-knerr.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

On 14.05.23 at 19:59 Yves wrote:
> everybody is not super accurate in drawing polygons, imagery has a
resolution and I doubt a lot of mappers go trough a complete parking lot a
measuring tape in their hands.

Sure, mappers drawing polygons very rarely use measuring tape.

The same is true for mappers adding tags.

I'd wager the vast majority of width values currently in the OSM 
database are estimates or ? at best and in rarer cases ? rough 
measurements from a phone app.

It's obvious that the dimensions of polygons in OSM are not reliable. 
But unless you have a plan to prevent mappers from entering guesses or 
insufficiently precise measurements into width tags for parking spaces 
(even while using those sources for width tags on all sorts of other 
objects is accepted practice and commonplace), I doubt that you will 
consistently achieve the desired accuracy by encouraging people to add 
width tags to parking spaces. _Maybe_ it will work as long as no one 
except accessibility-focused apps uses this tag and therefore mappers 
overwhelmingly keep that particular use case in mind when adding the 
tags, but that seems fragile.


Also, on an unrelated note, I'm curious about the intended definition of 
width and length for non-rectangular parking spaces.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 14 May 2023 20:36:30 +0200
From: Marc_marc <marc_marc at mailo.com>
To: tagging at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposal On Wheels app 3 - Parking
	spaces for wheelchair users
Message-ID: <a7274021-b6e4-5537-ad4b-c71ff18b0213 at mailo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Le 14.05.23 ? 19:59, Yves via Tagging a ?crit?:
> everybody is not super accurate in drawing polygons

indeed, and most tools doesn't allow to request a polygon with a given 
lenght/width

> I doubt a lot of mappers go trough a complete parking lot a measuring tape
in their hands.
> On the contrary, estimating a width from one's car

I don't understand this argument: the question is not to have the 
measurement (with a laser, with satellite imagery, by estimating
by comparison with his car)
the question is how to introduce this measure in osm with
3 possible choices :
either on a parent object (for example amenity=parking with 
parking_space:width parking_space:lenght) but that does not say
where the space is)
or an amenity=parking_space node with width and lenght: compared
to the previous solution, we gain the position of the space (and
anyone on the spot can obviously tell where he is when he parks
his vehicle)
or an amenity=parking_space polygon: compared to the previous
solution, we gain the surface and its orientation in relation
to the other objects.

> I'd say yes to such a tag.
I have nothing against the tag, it would simply be necessary for the 
person/application in question to know that it is only one of the 3 
possible methods and that, out of the 3, it is the one that gives
the least information. so :
- if they have the possibility to make a method giving more
information, they might as well do it (at least a node 
amenity=parking_space)
- if osm has the information in the form of area, it shouldn't come
to the point of saying "no, it must be in the form of 
parking_space:width" and convert or ignore the precise methods
in favour of the less precise one
and if someone were to convert a parking_space:witdh 
parking_space:lenght to a surface of this size, the application
would not have to regress or worse, someone would have to revert
because the application does not handle it in this form

Regards,
Marc





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