<div dir="ltr">OK, a little more thought on this.<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:45 PM,  <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au" target="_blank">osm.tagging@thorsten.engler.id.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If I may correct your suggestion, that’s not quite right.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0cm;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">The </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff">lanes=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> key should be used to specify the total number of <b>marked</b> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:lanes" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_7" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="Wikipedia-16px.png"></span><span style="color:#663366"> lanes</span></a>of a road.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0cm;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">The following lanes should be <b>included</b>:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">General purpose <img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_6" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="[W]"> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane" title="wikipedia:Lane" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366">traffic lanes</span></a> suitable for vehicles wider than a motorbike.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="[W]"></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_lane" title="wikipedia:Bus lane" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366">Bus lanes</span></a>, that are reserved for public service vehicles (PSV), for example buses and taxis. Additionally to the total number of lanes, consider to tag the number of lanes for PSV with </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff">lanes:psv=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">, </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff">lanes:bus=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> <wbr>and </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff">lanes:taxi=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="[W]"></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-occupancy_vehicle_lane" title="wikipedia:High-occupancy vehicle lane" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366">High-occupancy vehicle lanes</span></a> (sometimes also called carpool lanes, commuter lanes, express lanes, transit lanes). The number of such lanes could be tagged using </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff">lanes:hov=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Other lanes such as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nl:Spitsstrook" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="Wikipedia-16px.png"></span><span style="color:#663366"> spitsstroken</span></a>(nl) in the Netherlands or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:Stra%C3%9Fenquerschnitt#Seitenstreifen" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="Wikipedia-16px.png"></span><span style="color:#663366"> temporäre Standstreifen</span></a>(de) in Austria, Germany and Switzerland which are available to traffic at certain restricted times, for example during the rush hour.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Longer slip-roads, for example on motorways and other fast major roads. Turning lanes for minor roads are not normally included. See </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn" title="Key:turn" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0b0080">turn</span></a>=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> for further details about tagging turning lanes.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree.  Because bus, HOV and taxi lanes are included because knowing where they are and whether or not they can be used by a specific mode is important, bicycle lanes should also be included.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0cm;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">And the following lanes should be <b>excluded</b>:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Minor slip roads without a deceleration/acceleration lane, i.e. the main road is wider only because of the intersecting road.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Parking lanes. Consider using </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane" title="Key:parking:lane" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0b0080">parking:lane</span></a>=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> to provide further information.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Bicycle lanes. Use the tag </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway" title="Key:cycleway" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0b0080">cycleway</span></a>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycleway%3Dlane" title="Tag:cycleway=lane" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0b0080">lane</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> for those.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:1.2pt;margin-left:19.2pt;background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#222222"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">         </span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">Emergency <img border="0" width="16" height="16" style="width:.1666in;height:.1666in" id="m_-7366474613696339750Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D3E86A.B8B69FF0" alt="[W]"> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_(road)" title="wikipedia:Shoulder (road)" target="_blank"><span style="color:#663366">shoulder lanes</span></a>. See </span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#222222;background:#eeeeff"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder" title="Key:shoulder" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0b0080">shoulder</span></a>=*</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222"> for further details.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree with this mostly, except for the bike lane situation.  </div><div><br></div><div>And in a related note, it would be nice to have a method to deal with parking lanes that are <i>not</i> curb lanes, as this is the most common method used in the US to create Dutch-style segregated cycleways (the bike lane is along the curb, then on the side of the bike lane that's not against the curb, you have a white flush median (theoretical gores on freeways are a kind of white flush median, you're supposed to treat it like a curb in the roadway), and on the other side of the flush median, you have the parking lane.  But that's another can of worms and the situation isn't so widespread as to be a serious problem (yet), unlike the weird exclusion of bike lanes from bike lane tagging.  Tagging as separate roads feels incorrect in this case (as bollards or other physical barriers tend to be absent).</div><div>  </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">So a “normal” two way road with cycleways (in Australia, with left hand traffic) would be tagged as:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">cycleway=lane<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">lanes=2<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">vehicles:lanes:forward=no|yes<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">vehicles:lanes:backward=no|yes<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">bicycle:lanes:forward=<wbr>designated|yes<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">bicycle:lanes:backward=<wbr>designated|yes</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This breaks, because you're tagging for four lanes and setting your total lanes to 2.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">When tagging to this level, I generally try to also add the width:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">width:lanes:forward=1|3<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">width:lanes:backward=1|3</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is a good idea, as older bicycle lanes tend to be significantly more narrow than general access lanes.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">in JOSM the “lane and road attributes” mapstyle will help visualizing these tagged lanes.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Use vehicle instead of motor_vehicle (to keep carriages out of your cycle lanes…).</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, I tend to use access:lanes as the basic rule since no other modes, only bicycles, are allowed in bicycle lanes in Oklahoma (it's slightly more lax in Oregon, where almost any nonmotorized mode is allowed, and in California it's just a hot mess since bicycle lanes double as continuous turn lanes for other modes).</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Important: Do NOT include the cycleway lanes in the lanes=x count! The lanes count (which only counts marked lanes for motorized traffic) and the number of entries in the :lanes prefix keys can and will be different! </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I honestly can't fathom why you would tag more lanes than the lane count, is there anything that can actually handle this without just going, "Whoa, let's not use this data, it's obviously screwed?"</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_-7366474613696339750WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(Which is maybe somewhat unfortunate, but the lanes=count tag predates the :lanes prefix tags by many years, and has been used that way all over the place. Mixing different definitions of the lanes key in different places, or even just different segments of the same road, is going to result in useless, unreliable data as a data consumer will have no way to differentiate what definition of lanes=count would apply.)</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, I think excluding any lanes of travel (regardless of mode) is a significant flaw in the tagging and it's just not something existing tools can deal with, nor does it particularly mesh with how to treat other types of lanes.  And not including bicycle lanes precludes lane guidance for bicycles in any usable manner, especially as cycleways get larger and more complex with time on the ground (the London cycle superhighways, and Portland's "throw anything at the wall and see what sticks" ongoing experiment with sometimes really bizarre stuff) does mean that not treating these as lanes like other lanes on the ground is going to be a very big shortcoming in our data model.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not saying tag for the renderer, but I am saying Osmand did stumble backwards into doing the right thing (well, almost, it doesn't understand lane access <i>yet</i>), but it will provide lane guidance for bicycles and do so accurately on cycleways (where lane access isn't a thing).</div></div></div></div>