[talk-au] What gives with roundabouts?

Stephen Hope slhope at gmail.com
Thu Dec 11 07:05:58 GMT 2008

There is no problem adding a turning circle to courts as long as they
have one.  Before the turning circle tag was rendered, I saw the
occasional mini-roundabout used as a turning circle, because it "made
the map look right".


2008/12/11  <bluemm1975-osm at yahoo.com>:
> +1
> I completely agree with all of Darrin's points.
> I was unaware of the decision on the mailing list when I started mapping a about 1.5 years ago. I read the descriptions on the wiki and went with a proper roundabout for suburban roundabouts, since they don't fit the definition of the mini-roundabout. I don't even recall seeing one in Melbourne, you always have to deviate around even small ones. As a Potlatch user, it sucks a bit to add them, but Merkaartor & I think JOSM have a tool to make it easy.
> I'm a big fan of "mapping what's on the ground" and "don't tag for the renderers/routers". But I like the idea of global consistency, it makes it easier on all users of the raw data. That's what I hope Map Features will provide (consistency), but the voting has it's issues as well. There's talk on the Talk mailing list of having a Core Features page. So for eg. I'd be in favour of using the wiki definitions of place=* tags.
> I plan on submitting a proposal for the roundabout tag, where you can add it to a node like a mini_roundabout, for use in simple suburban type roundabouts. Something like junction:inner_width=3mcould specify the island size, making it possible for pretty rendering. Weird intersecting ways or large roundabouts would have to continue as is.
> Anyone have any suggestions before I create the proposal?
> PS. Was it me adding turning_circle to courts? The wiki page description seems to match my use of it (I waited many months for it to be proposed/accepted/added to renderers).
> Cheers, BlueMM
> --- On Thu, 11/12/08, Darrin Smith <beldin at beldin.org> wrote:
>> From: Darrin Smith <beldin at beldin.org>
>> Subject: Re: [talk-au] What gives with roundabouts?
>> To: Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
>> Received: Thursday, 11 December, 2008, 3:10 PM
>> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:55:13 +1100
>> Ian Sergeant <isergean at hih.com.au> wrote:
>> > > I've looked back through the logs, found the one discussion, noted
>> > > that it was basically a 4-3 split of contributors and since every
>> > > discussion on it has been "we discussed it and decided this".
>> > > Hardly a consensus in my mind.
>> >
>> > Since you made the effort to go back through the logs, and re-read the
>> > discussion that took place then, I'm surprised you would reach the
>> > conclusion that peoples position was solely related to effort.
>> I suspect that's because you were in the discussion and supported the
>> views of the first poster, hence you didn't look at how he expressed
>> it. (see below)
>> > I disagree that there hasn't been consensus on its use.  There always
>> > have been differences of opioion, but as you say, most people have
>> > been happy to accept that it is the way it is.  That is consensus.
>> Ok I'll pay that in the technical definition of the word you are
>> correct. However given that all new people approach a project
>> like this with some trepidation (For example it's taken me 10 months
>> and someone altering work I've done to make me raise this issue which
>> I've thought was wrong almost as soon as I found out about it)
>> it's not surprising the 'consensus' has been maintained.
>> OSM is littered with cases of things done badly to start with (which is
>> not a problem in one sense because something needs to be started
>> somewhere) and then carried on forever after (this is where it's a
>> problem) in what appears to be consensus because no-ones been motivated
>> to change it (The hideous is_in tag comes to mind).
>> > I feel the approach you are taking is wrong.  There are reasonable
>> > arguments to use a mini-roundabout tag in Australia where it is
>> > currently being used.  If you want to convince people to not use it,
>> > and to map using junction, take the time to understand and address
>> > those arguments, and convince people that the best way is the way you
>> > are suggesting.  Don't dismiss its proponents as lazy, or worse still
>> > as disruptive.  Many of its these people have been valuable
>> > contributors to getting the map done.
>> Ok, I could have approached it a better way I'll admit that. But this
>> issue boils down to the fact there are no actual reasons given for why
>> mini_roundabout should be used! The discussion just seems to assume that
>> every roundabout is a mini until it has reason to be bigger, it's not
>> even discussed whether this is valid.
>> The discussion resolves around what benefits the roundabout tag offers
>> OVER the mini_roundabout tag, ignoring the fact they actually imply 2
>> quite different things in the first place.
>> Historically the roundabout tag predates the mini-roundabout tag by at
>> least 10 months in the wiki pages. So in effect the original
>> mini_roundabout tag was devise to handle a very special case of
>> roundabout that doesn't fit well with the normal definition in size,
>> shape, signage and the fact you can drive straight over it in
>> extenuating circumstances (I can't help but wonder if mini is
>> referring more to it's HEIGHT that it's radius).
>> But here in Australia we apparently want to turn that very specific case
>> tag into the general tag and make the general tag for specific cases
>> without actually providing any valid reason (since we are apparently not
>> lazy).
>> The general roundabout tag is still more accurate on the ground - You
>> CAN'T drive straight through the center of the the average small
>> suburban roundabout, you often can't even walk over it for the
>> various things stuck on it. There is and island there, so why shouldn't
>> there be an island on the map?
>> So we in Australia have effectively reversed the precedence order of
>> these roundabouts.
>> --
>> =b
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