[talk-au] (LONG) Adelaide Highway Classification (was: Highway Classification Issues)

[Darrin Smith]

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:53:49 +1030
Jack Burton <jack at saosce.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 11:47 +1030, Darrin Smith wrote:
> > OK, to take this a step further I'll start the ball rolling in
> > Adelaide: (As we get a consensus I'll write a Adelaide/South
> > Australia Wiki page to reflect the decisions, I'm happy to do that)
> 
> To date, I've been following the guidelines on the Australian Roads
> Tagging wiki page, specifically those for "Urban Areas" (since
> everything I've done on OSM so far has been urban).

*SIGH* I can see we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this which is
what I feared. My interpretation of what's vaguely defined on there
makes me think you're not. This is not to say you're wrong just that
you have a different interpretation than mine... (northern A15 being the
classic example)

That's what this thread is about I guess, getting the interpretation
sorted out.

Rest assured I won't change any existing definitions from now on until
we sort this out. 

> > I propose that all "A" routes in Adelaide and only "A" Routes are
> > labelled trunk. 
> 
> I don't think this makes sense. Here's why:
> 
> Firstly, I'll get the two red herrings out of the way: if I recall
> correctly, the Gawler Bypass is signposted as A20, but it's actually a
> motorway. Similarly, the Port River Expressway signposted as A9 (and
> A13 for the part that used to be called the South Rd-Salisbury Hwy
> Connector Road), but also is a motorway. But I don't really think you
> intended the trunk definition to include those two.

Ok, good point, that's a lack of my definition which should have
included "unless the route is superseeded by being near-freeway
conditions in which case it should be a motorway" or something similar.
The motorway tag I think always dupes any other lower tag.

> Leaving those two aside, trunk routes (at least in urban areas) imply
> the big, heavily trafficed, wide, long, most significant roads within
> the greater metropolitan area.

This isn't the definition as I see it from the wiki:

highway=trunk. "Metroads" in the cities where they exist, or other
similar cross-city trunk routes in cities where they do not.

Going by how metroads are used in the relevant cities there are roads
of lower quality that some of the roads you are proposing to eliminate
labelled as turnk roads (southern end of metroad 3 in sydney comes
immediately to mind).

All the met-roads in other cities are about the cross-city nature of
things rather than the quality of the road. I would suggest the only 2
"A" routes in Adelaide that don't fit this rule are the A22 and the A14.
And yes the southern portion of the A15 past Norlunga Centre is another
case that's debatable.
However even though I don't think they deserve it, I think it's much
easier to define it as "all A roads" and be able to display that than
make a list that everyone keeps debating about.

For example:

> I think everyone will agree that for Adelaide that includes:
> 
> * The metro portion of Main North Road
> * The metro portion of Main South Road/South Road
> * The A21 city bypass route (with all its myriad of names)
> * Port Road
> * Anzac Highway as far as the coner of Tapleys Hill/Brighton Roads

Actually I'm not sure about the tagging of A5 on this one as a side
note. IIRC last time I was down that way the A5 stopped at Brighton
Road (no A5 ahead at that point, and nothing at all at the next
junction). So perhaps we need to check that's the case (I don't trust
my memory enough on this one). and pull  back the A5 there :)

> * Glen Osmond Road from the cnr of Greenhill Road to the Freeway

Part of this road isn't even an "A" Route, so does this suddenly open
us to defining other roads as trunk if we think they're busy enough? 

> * The metro portion of Victor Harbour Road (at least as far as Aldinga
> Road, beyond that it's no longer within the "urban" problem domain :)
> * The portion of Fullarton Road that has an A reference

This is one easily questioned for example, what makes it special/ sure
the A1 goes along it but if Glen Osmond road is a trunk to carry all
the traffic into the city, what purpose does Fullarton Road server
except to carry a few wandered who didnt make the A17 turn past the
city? 

> * Portrush Road/Lower Portrush Road/Hampstead Road
> * North East Road
> * Grand Junction Road

How far up? It's A to N.E.Rd beyond that it's not, I assume you mean
only that far? or maybe futher? by the east end it's only 1 lane each
way carrying less traffic than Lower N.E.Rd or Hancock Road (Source for
this info later with another way of complicating things :)

EDIT : I see you mention this lower :)

> * Port Wakefield Road
> 
> Most of us will probably agree that it also includes:
> 
> * Cross Road (A3)
> * Salisbury Highway/John Rice Avenue

This is another one I though long and hard about trunking, after all
it's right next to Main North Road raelly (2km seperating them)...
 
> I'm 50/50 on Payneham Road/Lower North East Road -- it's a road of
> importance (definitely at least primary), but not the main trunk route
> in the area (that would be North East Road).

How far away does a road have to be to be another 'trunk' road? Do we
now apply this there too?

> Likewise, with the A15 (Tapleys Hill Road/Brighton Rd/Lonsdale Rd/etc.
> etc.). Again, it's definitely a road of importance (at least primary),
> but particularly at the Southern end, I'd say not the main trunk route
> in the area (that would be Main South Road). For example, if you look
> at the area South of Seaford Road, Main South Road is currently
> tagged as primary, whereas Commercial Road (A15) is tagged as trunk,
> despite Main South Road being a much longer & wider road, with higher
> speed limits, greater traffic, more link-style access roads, less
> direct intersections, better signage and servicing more destinations.

Actually quality wise the only way Main South Road is better than
Commerical road to that point now is speed. Commerical road is by far a
higher quality road south of point where MSR becomes the B23.

> Granted, Main South Road doesn't seem to have an A designation past
> the corner of Victor Harbour Road, but it still seems to be more of a
> trunk road than Commercial Road is (despite Commercial Road's A
> designation). On the other hand, I can see why the Northern end of
> the A15 (Tapleys Hill Road) could be considered a trunk route.
.
> > I can understand some hesitation from people with respect to the
> > A22, parts of the A16 because they are low quality roads, but if
> > we're going
> 
> I think the A16 is tagged correctly at present (trunk from the corner
> of Port Road to the corner of North East Road, then primary beyond
> that.
> 
> UPDATE: Just checked the map. I didn't realise that the A16 continued
> up the LeFevre Peninsula. That part definitely should not be trunk
> (probably okay left as primary).

And yet it's considered by the Transport department to be one of the
few "A" routes in it's highest classification.
(See
http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/facts_figures/traffic_volumes.asp
- ANOTHER potential definition source for what constitutes each level
of highway (type 6 maps to trunk, 7 to primary, 8 to secondary and 9 to
tertiary quite well actually but AGAIN there's some odd definitions in
there, like Cormack road) and I'm reasonably sure it will become an
'Auslink' road once the port river expressway bridges are complete (if
it's not already).

> The A22 on the other hand, hardly seems to be a trunk route, with the
> area being serviced by the much more major routes of A13 (South Road),
> A1 (Main North Road) and A16 (Grand Junction Road).

You've got no argument with me on that one as to whether it seems
worthy, the only reason I trunked it was keep the pattern consistent.
I've NEVER understood why transport SA made that an A route..
 
> I think that's the problem. The reference indicators need to be on the
> map, so people can use the MABC signs as navigational aids, but I
> don't think they should define the highway= tag -- at least, not in
> metro Adelaide, and probably not in other metro areas either.

You better go tell the others then ;) They are defining features at
least at the trunk and primary levels in every other Australia City. I
guess it boils down to the mapping intent, are they highway= tags
intended for importance, navigation or physical definition (which
aludes to the 3 different models I talked about in the previous post).

I am constantly annoyed by low quality maps which are useless for
navigational purposes because you can never easily determine the
routes you are following because they are not consistently labelled a
seperate colour.

> There are dozens of examples of where this would inappropriate,
> including the above. But also think about the A14: Whilst I personally
> believe Marion Road is correctly tagged as primary, I can see how some
> might consider it trunk; but Holbrooks Road & East Avenue (also part
> of A14) -- surely not.

Again, nothing wrong with your point, but if you follow the thinking
then any A route can be dropped from trunk and any other route can be
upped to trunk and it suddenly becomes hard for people to follow the
map.
 
> > 2) Definition of rural vs city area
> > 
> > I propose that the area bounded by lines joining Two Wells, Gawler,
> > Birdwood, Mount Barker, Willunga, Aldinga and the Coast line are
> > defined as "City" area, and that areas outside these are considered
> > "Rural" (We can define other "city" areas around Mount
> > Gambier/Whyalla/Whatever if people have definitions?). I think the
> > current Rural definitions as provided on the Wiki are pretty close
> > to spot on for these areas.
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly with your proposed Northern, Southern and
> coastal borders.
> 
> I agree in principle with your proposed Eastern border. However,
> that's not how most of the western half of the hills have been
> tagged. I'd like to hear input from Kim (adhoc) before committing on
> this, since he has done most of the mapping in that area and probably
> knows it better than either of us. In particular, I'd suspect that
> whilst Mount Barker and Willunga should probably both be classed as
> metro areas, that might not be appropriate for the (predominantly
> country) roads that connect them to each other.

Yeah, that border was a rough draw of the map to get a starting refence
point. I tried to make it far enough out to be obvious and of course
the who area down to Mount Barker sticks out like a sore thumb pushing
the whole boundary out :)

Again we could borrow from our delightful Transport SA and use this as
a more formal definition: (Full Extend metropolitan area map)

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/transport_network/facts_figures/mantained_roads.asp

Recognizing that at the fringe/crossing those borders only the "B"
roads should be primaries.

But then this pushes even futher out than my previous definition so
maybe it's not so crash hot an idea :)

> > 3) Primary Roads in City:
> > 
> > There are about 5 "B" Roads inside the definition of the city area,
> > otherwise there's a whole bunch of roads in the city itself which
> > server the cross-city tasks the road definition suggests these
> > should be. However I think there are currently way too many roads
> > in Adelaide marked as primary which AREN'T serving significant
> > cross-suburb purposes (Prospect Road is one that immediately comes
> > to mind). I would
> 
> I've never seen a B road signposted in metro Adelaide (although there
> are plenty outside of the metro area) -- where are they?

B10, B19, B31 and B23 are all immediately in any definition of the Metro
area. Without my definition above we also have to include B33 and B34
meaning I can't count ;)

> I agree with you though, that there seem to be too many roads tagged
> as primary in Adelaide at present. Many of these should probably be
> tagged as secondary - some perhaps even tertiary - although this will
> exacerbate our problem with secondary and tertiary _links :)

We'll sort that little issue out, we know it was mainly an issue of my
understanding of this (When I write up the Wiki page I will make it
clear _link implies one-way don't you worry about that ;)

> I've included above my first draft of what such a list would look like
> for trunk roads.
 
> Here's a start for the primary roads:

my comments: 
 
> * Sir Donald Bradman Drive/Burbridge Road (A6)

Definietly assuming it's not a trunk ;)

> * Henley Beach Road/Bakewell Underpass/Glover Avenue

Definitely

> * Grange Road (the one that goes to Grange)

Definitely

> * Torrens Road until the corner of Addison Road 

Definitely

> * Marion Road (part of A14)

Definitely assuming it's not a trunk ;)

> * A15 (Tapleys Hill Rd/Brighton Rd/Lonsdale Rd/etc. etc.)

Definitely assuming it's not a trunk ;)

> * A22 (Churchill Rd/Cavan Rd)

I'd almost suggest that if this wasn't a trunk it'd would be primary
for Cavan Road and secondary for the rest, it's just not that important
a road.

> * Prospect Road (although the bit that's been turned into a circus
> should probably be tertiary, as you've alluded to above)

Disagree on this one, it serves only the few suburbs along it getting
to the city. It's 1-lane each way for most of it's length.

> * Regency Road

Definitely, and Mullers of Course :)

> * All those roads currently marked as primary within the CBD and North
> Adelaide (postcode areas 5000 & 5006)

Not sure South Terrace, Hutt Street or Morphett Street qualify for
this, they're all really stub ends of roads from only one side of the
city like Pirie and Rundle.

> * Payneham Road/Lower North East Road

Again Definitely assuming it's not a trunk :)

> * Those parts of Fullarton Road not marked as trunk

The bits that are either 1 lane each way or crappy 2 lane each way all
on one carriageway? If we're going to consider quality of road into
things (which you are imply by some of your definitions, this I think
these are up for queston).

> * Richmond Road between South Road and Anzac Hwy (secondary west of
> South Rd; tertiary west of Marion Rd) 

That one works quite well for me.

> * Greenhill Road east of Fullarton Rd (western part should be trunk)

All the way to Uraidla in fact. 

> * Magill Road

Yup, as long as we continue it up into the hills to recognise it's a
significant through road (Old Nortin Summit Road is now the preferred
through route by road design).

> * Glynburn Road

Lived on this road for 10 years and I can tell you it's not worthy.
Traffic levels are really quite low and it's more of a local access
road. It definitley peters off into nothing as you head south of Magill
road too.

> * Walkleys Road/Sudholz Road/Darley Road

Definitely, but how far down? Newton Road? St Bernards Road? Penfolds?
This one is tricky because it again peters off at the southern end but
the northern end is definitley important in a cross-city linking kind
of way. I'd consider extending it all the way to Greenhill Road
(doglegging into Hallett Road) merely because of the navigational
factor.

> * Grand Junction Road east of North East Rd

Ah this answers my earlier question about what you meant, and I Agree
with this one.

> * Sturt Road

Including Shepherds hill road all the way to blackwood round about.
(Then we face an interesting issue re Upper Sturt Road forming a well
used access path to southern suburbs from Crafers? primary?)

> * Flaxmill/Wheatsheaf Roads

Why? Sure it's a nice big road in parts, but it only links a few
suburbs. It's not that busy a road. It's only a level 8 road from
Transport SA's Point of View.

> * Beach Road (Noarlunga) between A15 and A13

Definitely, a lesser road than the previous physically, but heavier
traffic and more important (if the link from bottom of Panatalinga to
Beach ever gets built I think the whole thing should be primary)

> * Seaford Road (between A15 and A13)

no, Griffiths Drive is the more important one in the region now,
linking right through to the A13 (good shortcut when the queue at
Main South Road corner is too long ;)

> * Aldinga Road

Definitely

> * Victoria Road (LeFevre peninsula)

Again Assuming it's not a trunk :)

> * Birdge Road (Pooraka)

This one had me thinking, I used to drive along it a lot and the
traffic levels are suprisingly low at the top end.
i think the section form Kings/McIntyre to Grand Junction is heavily
enough used to warrant primary, I'm still in 2 minds about the northern
section, it's almost just a small service road for those few suburbs.

> * Waterloo Corner Road (Salisbury)

Definitely, not a high quality road, but it's linking of Port Wakefield
road to Salisbury and Golden Grove areas is significant. Of course that
poses the issue of Park Terrace, I've marked it primary now because it
forms the waterloo corner-grove way link.

> * Kings Road (Salisbury)

This is another of those A Road trunk edge cases I know :) 
Again if it's not a trunk it's definitely a primary.

> * Phillip Hwy (Elizabeth)

This one I've been arguing with myself about, it's a good shortcut from
Salisbury Highway to Main North Road if you like to save a kilometre or
so, but it's really a feeder road into Elizbaeth one way and a minor
feeder of commuter traffic into Salisbury Highway. It may just scrape
over the line I guess, and it does look nice there as a primary :)

> * Old Mt Barker Rd/Old Princes Hwy (hills)

I balk at this one, it's neither a commuter route nor more than a
linker of adjacent towns who are too close to use freeway exits.
The B route system up there (B33 out through Stirling, B34 through
Hahndorf and Woodside and the B37 through Mount Barker) give us
primaries along all the main heavy routes anyway. The M1 just eats up
all the other heavy duty jobs.

> * Goodwood Road/Fiveash Drive/Ayliffes Road

This one had me in 2 minds but I eventually came down in my mind a
couple of days ago to agree on this one. Mainly due to it's heavy
commuter (arterial I guess :) usage. 

> * Unley Road/Belair Road

This is a funny one, all the traffic goes up
unley/belair/blythewood/old belair/main road but I'd suggest from a
mapping point of view for a 'through route' for people/systems to
follow to use straight up belair road. And to extend this route quite a
distance south, where to stop is tricky because I've always been of the
opinion this should have been an A or B route all the way to Goolwa,
but that's just me. If we follow the rural pattern outside of the city
then at some point this route needs to drop to 'secondary' since that's
what it is in the rural section. So we need to decide where to stop :)
I'd suggest at least to Black Road.

> The list probably needs a whole bunch more entries in the hills and a
> few more in the Northern suburbs and maybe a couple more in the deep
> South too -- others who know the local roads better than me can add
> these. Similarly, I've left out the Golden Grove area altogether since
> looking at the map it seems to have changed immensely since I was last
> there (some years ago), so someone else will need to make a start on
> that area.

I wasn't going to make a long list but I got carried away, here's my
additions:

* Heaslip road and Angle Vale road from Heaslip Road to Galwer

A *VERY* heavy truck route and of course the target for replacement by
the northern expressway, but for the moment it's a very signficant 2nd
entry to the city from Gawler and Beyond.

* Grove Way - whole length

This is a very heavily trafficed road linking Salisbury and Elizabeth
to the Golden Grove & Modubry areas (and via Hancock Road & Lower
N.E.Rd suburbs south of the Torrens)

* Golden Grove Road to Old Golden Grove and possibly the road up
through snake gully to One Tree Hill and Gawler

The start of this one is easy, it's a major through road/arterial, how
far it follows along this path as primary I'm not sure since it crosses
into the almost rural area but Transport SA have not chosen to put any B
roads in the area..

* Black Top Road, this road links up to the above road higher up, it
links One Tree Hill and Para Wirra Consevation park to the city. If we
extend the above far enough up to intersect with this I think this
should be primary, if not it should probably fall back to secondary.
So this is a debatable one.

* Montague road - Modbury to Dry Creek, this is the next significant
east-west through road north of Grand Junction Road, mostly duplicated,
higher speed in sections.

* Majors Road/Black Road - Sheidow Park to Corromandel Valley

I think this is the 'next' east-west road to define. It's fairly low
quality but it's cross-city-ness makes it more relevant.

* Flagstaff Hill Road & continues

major north-south arterial in the area, perhaps continue it all the way
up Chandlers Hill Road to Clarendon? And beyond? (then we get into
rural teritory again) It has really replaced Chandlers Hill road from
South road (listed below) as the main route into this area, carrying
twice the traffic.

* Panatalinga Road - High Quality, Serving many suburbs, links directly
across A13 to the M2, and may eventually link through to beach road..
Of course it's not really cross suburb and could be grouped with The
Grove Way whichever way we decide...

* Kenihans Road/Chandlers Hill Road

This is a possible inclusion, forming another east-west link between
black road and sheriffs road, and looking at the Transport SA traffic
levels in the area this combination totally blitzes the chandlers hill
road to main south road path for traffic levels. not sure if it quite
qualifies for primary though.

(BTW just to make it clear I know all of Adelaide pretty well, 6 years
of Taxi driving finishing 10 years ago and a healthy interest in
driving around adelaide just to look at the roads means I've seen a LOT
of it, just so you don't think Im totally making this up :)

> Note that I have deliberately left out the following (some of which
> are currently or have previously been tagged as primary) roads, as
> whilst they are important roads, they are not "cross-city" or
> "arterial":

Yup, I like this list, well most of them, my comments are in there:

> * West Lakes Boulevard

Yup

> * OG Road

Yup 

> * Old Port Road

Yup

> * Military Road

Yup

> * Seaview Road (the one by Henley Beach, not the one in the South)

Yup

> * Diagonal Road (both of them)

Yup

> * Morphett Road (the one by the racecourse)

Yup, nearly did this one myself the other day :)

> * Oaklands Road/Daws Road/Springbank Road

This is a tricky one, including blythewood road it forms the next
significant east-west route down from Cross Road... another borderline
case..

> * Seacombe Road

Oh definitely, another one I've alraedy considered dropping. And I used
to live just off that one many years ago too, and it hasn't improve
much in *cough* years, it's still a nothing road carrying mainly local
traffic.

> * The Parade

Oh yes, definitely.

> * Kensington Road

This one could prove interesting, there are 2 signs on Portrush Road
showing the A6 going along here towards the city. However I'm still
waiting to see at least a couple more signs between West Terrace and
Portrush Road before I accept the A6 goes all the way through...
If we assume it doesn't for the moment, then yes it's a secondary :)

> * Woodville Road

Yup

> * Nottage Terrace (Medindie)
> * Osmond Terrace (Norwood)

A tricky one, since Nottage forms the link from the A10 to the western
side of the A21 and carries nearly 30k vpd which is more than quite a
number of other roads around the city...  Certainly the whole of the
road BEYOND there is secondary territory.

> * St Vincent Street/Jervois Bridge/Hart St (Port Adelaide)

Yup, if anything, currently until the bridge is pout in the route from
the end of the A9 over the birkenhead bridge should be considered as
potential primary teritory... if we discuss this long enough it'll
become academic of course :)

Now my own 'drop' additions:

* Chandlers Hill Road from main South Road to Kenihans Road (See Above)

That's it, I think you've covered nearly everything else in your list :)

> > 4) Further levels: For later, a few steps at a time :)
> 
> I think there are far too many roads in even a small city like
> Adelaide to even consider coming up with a prescriptive list of what
> can be a secondary or tertiary road -- assuming most of us are
> mapping from actual surveys and/or local knowledge, I think simple
> guidelines are more than sufficient.

Oh for sure, in the case of these I was think of making a couple of
general rule of thumbs, the most obvious being:

If it's a divided road with >= 2 lanes it's secondary if it's not
anything else. That covers just about every case of current primary
that should be secondary you listed above. :)

And I guess at some point it gets redundant to list them in 2 places
anyway :) (on the map and on the wiki :) I think trunk + primary are
important enough to make it clear to everyone on there. 

> > I'm particularly would like input from those guys mapping lots
> > of Adelaide with me (jackb, justcameron, adhoc?) since you guys and
> > I will tread on each others toes if we're not seeing eye-to-eye.
> 
> Agreed. See above.

I might start a South Australia page on the wiki to start documenting
all the ones we agree on at least (and flag the others as under
debate - with a note to say don't change any debatable ones - yet :)
I think this will help someone like me, who recently found OSM and got
enthusiastic and could see obvious inconsistencies, but couldn't
necissarily work out the right way to go... and you know what happened
in a couple of cases ;)

Thanks to everyone who read the whole thing :)

-- 

=b