[talk-au] Adelaide out of copyright street directory

bluemm1975-osm at yahoo.com bluemm1975-osm at yahoo.com
Sun Jan 18 03:02:07 GMT 2009


I too "found the light" after following the Talk mailing list, but had 
already done ~8 months of tracing :-( Slowly fixing that up now.
I too think that data that has no source/source:name/source:ref tags 
etc. is not trustworthy, but is better than nothing (because someone 
can now see that it needs to be verified, & goes out and does a survey).

Your example is a bit tough, I don't think there is consensus yet on how 
to mark up the extra details. Given that, I'd expect:
   source=yahoo   name=blah   source:name=MMBW
then something like:
   oneway:source=knowledge   traffic_calming:source=gps

Smushing all sources into the one source=* tag is probably the worst way 
of doing it

PS. It seems it's an anomaly that source:name isn't name:source, I think 
    it was for grouping source tags when sorted alphabetically. Looking 
    at Tagwatch, both are popular, but source:name is more so. I believe 
    some tools handle either format.

IIRK, one of the OSM founders said on Talk, source=gps is better than
source=survey, as survey implies a professional survey with surveying
equipment, for example from public domain government data.

BTW, Potlatch has source=* shortcut keys, JOSM & Merkaartor probably do 
too.

I don't think it's intractable problem, with crowdsourcing, good tools & 
leadership on "best practices" by the experienced, it's solvable.


I think of source:name as a series of levels, where you can overwrite a 
source with a higher one:
 1. source:name=image (GPS tagged photo's the best)
 2. source:name=voice
 3. source:name=survey (poorly named, but for a notepad etc.)
 4. source:name=knowledge
 5. source:name=MMBW/Collins1936 (Out-of-copyright)
 6. source:name=historical

I use survey, writing in my PDA's notepad application & save as PNG's on 
my computer as an evidence trail. I should probably use 
source:name=notepad to be explicit. When you think about it, almost all 
could be doctored (from a copyright source) except for photo's, so I 
think that's the ultimate goal (all street signs/POI have a 
corresponding GPS tagged photo of them), yep, a lot of work.
Maybe I should get around to buying a GPS :-)

source=* is different, since just because you tweak a few road bends from
a GPS track doesn't mean it wasn't derived from Yahoo tracing.
I'd suggest source=yahoo;gps in that case.
Of course I'm not a copyright lawyer, but that seems to make sense to me.
I can't imagine a scenario where is would be ok to change the source on 
a road from a government import, just because someone drove down the 
road wih their GPS. It still is derived from the Government data.

Cheers,
BlueMM

--- On Sun, 18/1/09, Matt White <mattwhite at iinet.com.au> wrote:
> I'm also a serial offender for not using the survey tag, but again, I 
> upload all my traces.
> 
> I do a bit of yahoo tracing as well, and don't directly mark that 
> either...
> 
> But then again, I don't go and screw around with any existing nodes and
> ways unless I've been there... however I have been known to add the 
> road way in off a random trace that wasn't mine if I've been in the 
> area (sans name generally) and the trace quality is good enough.
> 
> It's an intractable problem - forcing a source=survey/yahoo/made_up tag
> still won't solve the issue as the source tag needs to be kept up to 
> date, and you can link the source tag to the individual tag within a 
> node (eg: the way is yahoo sourced, the name comes from the MMBW maps,
> a local marked it one way through local knowledge, and someone added 
> speed humps using a GPS trace/waypoint setup.
> 
> So the source tag contains a variety of sources, and no way of 
> determining what applies to what.
> 
> In the end, the crowdsourcing approach *should* sort out the wheat from
> the chaff eventually, but no doubt there will be some hiccups along 
> the way.
> 
> Matt
> 
> Nick Hocking wrote:
> > "There is a substantial amount of data with no source tag. I'd really
> > like to
> > know whether it was traced or surveyed, because then I'd know whether
> > to go
> > down that street or not."
> >  
> > Liz,
> >  
> > I think there was a recent discussion about this and there was a 
> > school of thought that said that if there
> > were public gps traces for a way then source=survey was unnecessary.
> >  
> > I'm a serial offender for not adding source=survey tags but if the 
> > general consensus is that it should be added
> > then I will manually add this tag to any ways that I have edited - I 
> > could take a while though......
> >  
> > I do upload public gps traces for all roads that I tag but I guess 
> > that this is not a guarantee that the resultant way was
> > properly surveyed.   E.G  I have about 6 thousand miles of interstate
> > traces in USA that I have stopped
> > editing in because there is about to be another TIGER ravage.
> >  
> > Eventually someone may use these traces without  knowing if I was 
> > actually driving on the road the whole time.
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------


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