[talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Sun Apr 23 23:53:50 UTC 2017

Following on, I should point out that Qld TMR's view of Rest Areas is that they are a safety feature of the roads, specifically to combat fatigue, which makes them different to camp sites.

Cheers,
Nick Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas G Lawrence [mailto:nicholas.g.lawrence at tmr.qld.gov.au] 
Sent: Monday, 24 April 2017 9:48 AM
To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

Quoting from the "Guide to Queensland Roads" by Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads.

"Motorist Rest Areas
- Rest areas are there for you to stop and rest, making your trip safer and more enjoyable.
- Rest areas are not long-term camping sites. However motorists are able to take extended rest breaks at some sites.
- Rules on the length of stay at rest areas vary between controlling authorities
- Motorists can stay up to 20 hours, including overnight, at some Transport and Main Roads rest areas shown in blue.
- Caravans and motorhomes are not considered heavy vehicles, and should not stop at heavy vehicle locations.
- Motorists cannot stay overnight at Transport and Main Roads rest areas shown in red."

I should also point out that some rest areas are for Motorists, some for Heavy Vehicles, and some cater for both.

There are also Driver Reviver spots which may also be useful to capture?

Cheers,
Nick Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: cleary [mailto:osm at 97k.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2017 10:28 AM
To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Roadside rest areas tagged as camp sites

I draw a parallel with other amenities. Some cafes are licensed to sell limited alcohol but that does not make them pubs; and some pubs serve coffee but that does not make them  cafes.  And both cafes and pubs often serve food.  While there can be overlap in services provided by amenities, map users are best served by the use of terms that help them understand the main purpose of the amenity. 

I share the concern about confusing rest areas and camping sites.  To the average person, "rest areas" are for relatively shorter stays, perhaps just half an hour or sometimes overnight but not for longer periods. In contrast "camping sites" can be for just one night but are more commonly used for longer stays.  

Areas by the side of roads are "rest areas" and are usually signposted as such.  I think it better that roadside rest areas be labelled as "rest area" in OSM with additional tags used to add detail about specific facilities etc available at the rest area.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017, at 09:50 PM, Warin wrote:
> On 21-Apr-17 07:40 PM, David Bannon wrote:
> > On 20/04/17 19:50, Warin wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks. Sometimes my 'plain English' understanding gets the better 
> >> of the 'OSM meanings'!
> > Hmm, I think people in caravans do think they are camping. If there 
> > is a sign, "no camping" we assume it means no caravans too.
> 
> True.
> The 'officials' seam to be thinking that a single over night 'rest' is 
> fine, but multiple nights = camping and that is not fine.. at least 
> that is my impression from the grey nomads site.
> Anyone trying to turf someone 'resting due to fatigue' - even 
> overnight
> - would be on thin ground before a reasonable court as we are advised 
> to 'rest' when tired.
> >
> >> a) I do think that 'rest areas' should be tagged using the rest 
> >> area tag.
> > Honestly, I have never tagged a rest area. I go straight to thinking 
> > of it as a potential camp site, if not, I don't bother. Sorry....
> > So I just read the rest_area key and I must say, its not really very 
> > useful IMHO. As its a key to highway= it needs to be applied to a 
> > way and not the surrounding area perhaps ?  Generally people don't 
> > camp on the drive through part but off the side. Mind you, have see 
> > a few people who have just stopped, closed the curtains and nod off !
> 
> Arr .. yes well the key has never been 'discussed', just put up by a 
> mapper. Presently it is shown as applying to nodes and areas, not ways 
> .. but if you go to the talk page you'll see some comments there 
> (including mine).
> Better include a link for those that want a look 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Drest_area
> 
> >>
> >> b) Using the tag 'tourism=camp_site' to me implies that I should be 
> >> able to set up a tent there.
> > Thats because you think "camp" means tent only. We've established 
> > that people camp using all sorts of infrastructure. Even truckies 
> > talk about 'camping' at some place or another.
> >
> You have made your point there. But I would find it strange to go to a 
> 'camp site' and be unable to pitch a tent because it was unsuitable.
> Think you'd find it strange to go to a camp site that did not have 
> space for a caravan? :) Quite a few rest areas don't have suitable 
> tent areas. A caravan only needs a longer parking space.
> 
> >> c) If they are appropriate for caravans/camper vans then there is 
> >> the caravan_site or caravan=yes tag that would better represent the 
> >> features facility?
> > I don't use tourism=caravan_site because I consider =camp_site more 
> > appropriate there being so many similarities and little point in 
> > distinguishing.  But I do use caravan=yes/no as a key to 
> > tourism=camp_site. In deference to your good self, I might use 
> > tent=yes/no a bit more often now :-)
> Thanks ... I have used the caravan bits in areas set aside for them on 
> occasion.
> >
> >  I really think the camp_site part needs to be tagged because it 
> > allows a large range of informative tags to be added. Toilets, 
> > water, rubbish disposal, web_site and so on. So, would it work to 
> > tag the road part highway=rest_area and surrounding area tourism=camp_site ?
> > Be OK for big ones like archers-creek-rest-area but smaller ones ?
> Don't see any reason why these features cannot be added to the rest 
> area key/value.
> >
> > I guess my point here is a rest_area is a camp site and visa versa. 
> > Some allow you to camp overnight, some don't. Some might allow it 
> > but would be horrible. Just what information are we trying to impart ?
> 
> Errr No.
> 
> A camp site, to me, means I can stay there for quite some time. They 
> are usually pleasant places to stay with some comfort.
> They are intended for people to;
> stay, at least overnight and
> relax at.
> 
> A rest area will be;
> intended for people to relieve their driving fatigue buy taking a 
> short break, close to a busy road and probably have constant visits 
> from people stopping for a rest .. say 15 to 30 minutes for a truck 
> driver under their rules, sometimes longer...
> and then they are off again.
> 
> They can be pleasant, or very unappealing.. some I have entered only 
> to leave straight away due to the rubbish left behind by others or the 
> numerous crowd.
> 
> Some have time limits of 20 hours (one state), some have signs 'no 
> camping' and there looks to be a consensus that a time limit will be 
> applied to avoid; the rest area being full of multi-day 'campers' so 
> people wanting a break will not find it full the commercial camp 
> grounds being devoid of paying customers who are at 'rest areas'
> 
> This apparently lead the RMS NSW to putting up 'no camping' signs at 
> rest areas along the Pacific Hwy.
> 
> I think the difference between the two is relevant ... and usefull.
> Much rather get to a proper camp ground than find myself at a rest area.
> Even a local sports ground, church yard, cemetery or park can be much 
> better than a rest area. These areas too have social pressures for 'no 
> camping'. I would never mark them as camp sites unless that is normal 
> there.
> (If you want to 'see' the varieties of camp sites unofficially used .. 
> google 'stealth camping'.)
> P.S. If you want a quite, peaceful rest area .. try a cemetery.
> 
> 
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