[talk-au] TAGGING a 'club' to a suburb rather than its actual street address ot isolate risk of theft/abuse

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Thu Jul 6 11:06:40 UTC 2017

Arr .. the old equipment is actual very nice once you get rid of the 
dirt, rust and replace the worn out rubber drives, electrical cables etc.
I have a few local woodworkers around me and they favour the older gear. 
As in older .. say 25+ years.
The fact that is cast iron means it is very heavy and so moving it is 
going to be a problem for theft.
They will take the modern portable powered stuff .. easily sold on .. 
and that is easy to replace.
The reason why they would target the club is that they see it as not as 
well protected as some other target.

So - how to reduce the risk? Take the 'attractive' portable power tools 
home after each meeting?
People may want to use them at home anyway, so loaning them out ... 
provided they come back or can be easily collected if required might be 

Could look at using OSM as a base map and then applying an overlay of 
the clubs area on top of that.
But you will need your own website to display it and have a displayed 
means of contacting the individual clubs ..
Once that is displayed then anyone can contact the club - find out where 
it is and when meetings are not taking place and target them.
The anti theft thing gains little.. and the loss is that it is not 
displayed/advertised on the OSM map which has a wide audience - most 
cell phone users have an OSM source map on their phone.
Unless the club wants to hide away and not have any new blood then I see 
little advantage in not advertising the clubs presence .. particularly 
to people local in the area.

On 06-Jul-17 08:21 PM, Gary Pope wrote:
> Warin
> All good input - agreed.    The generic use of 
> 'president.<woodclubname>@gmail.com  is already well adhered to.   And 
> the matter of searching in the end or the Club as a second step I 
> agree with.  It is in fact, from a security/risk point of view,  all 
> about mitigating the risks.   The outright purpose was to simply 
> ascertain,  where , in this fine country, are the 180 clubs.  Once 
> people know that one is nearby, then they can resort to other search 
> methodologies t finally find it.
> Interesting tonight after getting a few terrific replies like yours,  
> to ascertain the real issues legally, technically amd emotionally,  
> and we start asking questions like:
> 'Who would ant to knock off some 15 year old, outdated machinery 
> anyway?"    versus the fact that jewellery companies and cash based 
> firms are already all over the OSM maps - so why would a robber 
> suddenly think woodworking clubs are a target ?
> You and I are on the same page, Warin.   They point still remains,  
> that there are committees on these clubs who remain paranoid, or in 
> fact, sensibly smart, in ensuring that ANY risk of an impact on their 
> not-for-profit club is worth safeguarding. So,  if a MAP were to make 
> it 1% easier to FIND such clubs, then such a MAP should be avoided.   
> That's the impression I'm coming too, as I read and evaluate 
> everyone's answers.  But the sad conclusion is,  that we're running 
> scared of a 1% chance of impact,  versus the terrific help and 
> awareness of how to join and enjoy such clubs, could attain.   And it 
> is that LAST point that motivates me to find a solution.
> Thanks, Warin!
> Appreciate you, like other too, to find time to reply to my passionate 
> query,
> Gary
> On 06/07/17 19:43, Warin wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Andrew has it correct ... the map shows the actual location. Many 
>> things on the map could be targets for theft - car mechanics garages 
>> for instance.
>> Sorry but I don't see anyway that an area can be mapped for a club 
>> workshop,
>> the address will be found to anyone who really wants it, all that 
>> putting it in OSM does is makes it a little easier.
>> A google search on woodworking clubs gets a few hits - most of them 
>> with addresses.
>> As for spam emails and emails to past office holders .. too easy?
>> Email for club secretary? Sidney.Woodwork.Club.Secretary at gmail.com as 
>> an example -
>> The gmail account can be past from one office holder to the next.
>> Gmail does filter spam somewhat too.
>> This may go against gmails rules .. contact them and see if they can 
>> understand the requirement and if they would accept it.
>> Phone numbers are some what harder unless you have a landline at the 
>> club premises - there you can forward a call to another number .. and 
>> that number can be kept up to date for the present contact person.
>> You will probably need to pay for 2 landlines - incoming and outgoing 
>> - and some equipment to do the job.
>> If that is too much - a simple landline going to a message recorder 
>> would be very easy.
>> On 06-Jul-17 05:50 PM, Gary Pope wrote:
>>> Andrew
>>> I think you've explained well, the approach here.  The purpose of 
>>> OSM and my desire for a map showing general directory of clubs is 
>>> indeed a mismatch.   But nonetheless, worthy of trying, I hope you'd 
>>> agree.
>>> Until a solution for overcoming the risk or the fear of exposing the 
>>> location of the actual  clubs is found,  then pure OSM appears not 
>>> to be the way forward.   But for those (like the six example cases)  
>>> that do want to promote their location,  then the way we already 
>>> have it (minimal info to ensure no spam to emails or unsolicited 
>>> calls to phone numbers, or tagging out of date names of committee 
>>> members for instance) - then that aspect was already a goer.
>>> I'll standby for some more terrific feedback from this question 
>>> posed today.   Thanks for your insight,  Andrew.
>>> Gary
>>> On 06/07/17 17:34, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>>> Hi Gary,
>>>> I think that the options are either tag the exact location as 
>>>> club=woodwork or leave it out of OSM. So I don't agree with adding 
>>>> it on the suburb or locality. OSM is a geographic database not a 
>>>> business directory, so we don't have any way to add business 
>>>> without an exact location on the ground.
>>>> If you'd like to only have a map at the suburb/locality level I 
>>>> think it's a perfect use case of having your own data on top of OSM 
>>>> using something like umap https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/, 
>>>> geojson.io http://geojson.io/ <http://geojson.io/#map=2/20.0/0.0>, 
>>>> or Mapbox https://www.mapbox.com (full disclosure, I work with Mapbox).

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