[talk-au] Victorian suburbs/localities relations possible bulk upload

cleary osm at 97k.com
Sat Apr 28 11:08:33 UTC 2018




I agree with most of what Andrew says. However I offer a couple
of comments:
1. In regard to PSMA Admin Boundaries, it is my understanding that PSMA
   cannot grant a licence waiver as it is not the copyright holder.
   PSMA has been licensed to use the data under a CC licence. However,
   as far as I am aware, any variation to permission must be obtained
   from the licence holders which are the state and terrritory
   authorities identified by PSMA.
2. In regard to administrative boundaries along waterways, it is my
   understanding that (in NSW at least) the boundary does not change
   even when the waterway does. Therefore over time, there can be
   significant diffferences between waterways and nearby boundaries. For
   this reason the admin boundary and the waterway should be mapped
   separately.  The most famous is the NSW/Vic state boundary which was
   originally aligned with the southern bank of the Murray but, even
   though the river has changed course in parts, the boundary remains
   the same. Someone may know if the situation is different in other
   states/territories.





On Sat, Apr 28, 2018, at 8:38 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> Hi Ewen,
> 
> Nothing wrong with asking questions, hope my response doesn't come off
> too harshly! My thoughts below...> On 28 April 2018 at 19:30, Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I downloaded
>> https://data.gov.au/dataset/vic-suburb-locality-boundaries-psma-administrative-boundaries
>> and matched this to an overpass osm extract and then merged the data
>> into this map (avail early May 2018 only). https://goo.gl/XCwLnj>> 
>> The red lines are the PSMA whilst the dark green are the OSM. If you
>> look at the map you can see>> > New or osm localities not added or incorrectly adde
>> > Modified boundaries since the last upload
>> > Incorrectly attributed or missing boundaries
> 
> We should take caution here, just how do you know an admin boundary in
> OSM is incorrectly attributed? For example, I've seen a release of the
> PSMA Admin Boundaries where the suburb name didn't match signage on
> the ground, which shall prevail, so you can't always just overwrite
> what's in OSM currently.>  
>> > Some minor river/creek alignment issues that don't need remedial
>> > work that much.> 
> I agree with this as I don't think OSM should strictly == the upstream
> admin boundaries. For example where the boundary is legally defined as
> a watercourse, it should be matching the watercourse we have in OSM
> which may be more accurate or more current than the upstream data.>   
>> ...apart from getting clearance although it is a CC By 4 copyright...> 
> We still need the OSMF CC BY 4.0 waiver for the reasons at
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2017/03/17/use-of-cc-by-data/ we don't
> yet have the waiver to include it in OSM, however just to let you know
> I have been trying in the last few months.> 
> I sent off an email to the Department of the Prime Minister and
> Cabinet, who look after the publication of the PSMA Admin Boundaries
> on data.gov.au outlining why we ask for the waiver and why we'd like
> to be able to use it in OSM, on the 28th Feb, followed up on the 16th
> Mar to which they replied they are consulting on information before
> they provide a reply. I followed up again on the 13th Apr, and again
> just now.> 
> So until we have that I don't believe we should be using this dataset
> at all in OpenStreetMap.> 
> That said, if you're only interested in Victoria we do have the waiver
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vicmap_CCBYPermission_OSM_Final_Jan2018_Ltr.pdf
> to use the CC BY 4.0 licensed Vicmap Admin
> https://www2.delwp.vic.gov.au/maps/spatial-data/victorian-spatial-data#Vicmap_Admin-2.
> I'm open to a proposal investigating using it to update OpenStreetMap.>  
>  
>> My initial thoughts would be to upload these as none visible lines
>> with the key details in notes fields so that over time localities can
>> be updated but it would be a long term mess. An OSM note node would
>> be added as a pointer but it is still a large process.> 
> I think that would be too messy.
>  
>> Perhaps the best way is to add those missing localities, refine and
>> then look at those areas that have a mismatch over 10%.> 
> From a high level, that sounds reasonable.
>  
>> Another way would be to remove all Victorian relations that are
>> admin_level=10 an then load the new data?> 
> I don't agree with that, we should respect folks who have contributed
> this data already and as much as possible keep the history. Given the
> admin boundaries are often glued to roads, rivers, coastlines, other
> relations, I don't think it will work to do a bulk load.>  
>> Can anyone offer some guidance please. I have not performed a bulk
>> upload but understand the mechanics and process required, it is more
>> uploading a huge amount of data and how those in the future can
>> quickly reload the entire state on another major suburb upheaval.> 
> I think the only option is to:
> 1. Identify the major differences (as you've done and suggest)
> 2. Manually go over these differences and manually touch up the
>    existing OSM data with the changes, being mindful of the local
>    editors.> _________________________________________________
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