[talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

Michael m.james at internode.on.net
Fri Jun 29 08:47:01 UTC 2018


>From “The Cambridge Guide to Australian English Usage”

 

Page 713-714 https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FKpcDwAAQBAJ

 

Saint or St The conventions for writing saints' names depend on the context:

whether it's a reference to the saint himself or herself, or to an institution or place

named after them.

  The names of saints are only prefaced by Saint in books which describe their

life and works. Incidental references to them in history books and encyclopedias

are usually abbreviated to St. In the indexes to religious books, saints' names are entered

alphabetically according to their given names, with Saint following:

  Thomas Aquinas, Saint

In other references St is used, Churches are identified this way: St Mary's Cathedral,

St John's Church, as are other associated institutions: Brotherhood of St Laurence, St

Vincent de Paul. Purely secular institutions such as the St George Building Society

and the St Kilda Football Club naturally use the abbreviation.

 

It goes on but I can’t copy-paste from there so I had to type that, feel free to read it at your leisure.

 

Michael

 

 

From: Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 6:04 PM
To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.
I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language. 
 
I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded version. 
 
For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards 
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751
Saint Leonard of Noblac -559
 
Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :) 
 
---------------- Following a UK example? 
Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to 
 
Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.
Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.
 
Yes these are both the same area. 
 
So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. without using alt_name.  


On 29/06/18 17:31, Michael wrote:

The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should not be used.

 

The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person specifically.

 

Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but this about Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)

 

What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use Saint not St, do we need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or is this the responsibility of the renderer to work out?

 

Michael

 

 

From: Nemanja Bračko  <mailto:brackone at gmail.com> <brackone at gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
To: philip at philipmallis.com <mailto:philip at philipmallis.com> 
Cc: talk-au at openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-au at openstreetmap.org> 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

 

Best Regrads,

Nemanja

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis <philip at philipmallis.com <mailto:philip at philipmallis.com> > wrote:

It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary <osm at 97k.com <mailto:osm at 97k.com> > wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names. 

 

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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