[talk-au] I have written a response to DNRM, please give feedback

Michael Collinson mike at ayeltd.biz
Thu Mar 15 02:32:38 UTC 2018

I am the Michael Collinson mentioned by Simon, (hello Simon, it has been 
a while!). I still lurk on this list and after a long gap will be 
spending time in Australia each year. I am in Melbourne at the moment 
and look forward to meeting mappers here on my hopefully less busy visit 
later this year.

On 2018-03-12 22:57, Simon Poole wrote:
> Am 12.03.2018 um 11:47 schrieb Jonathon Rossi:
>> Sorry Simon, I really didn't intend to make things more complicated. 
>> I just wanted to ensure someone else doesn't get caught in the future 
>> after thinking I was doing the right thing, and no one else has done 
>> this each time this has come up in the past.
> Jonathon the effort is clearly appreciated. At the time the issue was 
> rather hotly debated and (as I wasn't really involved at the time) we 
> would likely need to ask Michael Collinson for the historic information. 

I have hesitated to get involved in this discussion as my knowledge is 
now several years out of date, particularly as regards CC 4.0. However, 
I can make some comments from a historical perspective ...

In summary, I 100% agree with Simon that while there may be issues with 
CC 4.0, earlier dataset incorporation is a "done deal" and history. We 
can clearly show with a paper trail that we have acted properly and in 
good faith. The only thing that I would suggest: Various Australian 
government organisations have been very helpful to us, and much earlier 
than most. As a courtesy, I feel we should add a line to our high-level 
page https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright, (Simon?)

In more detail ...

I pinpointed a number of datasets published on the data.gov.au website 
under a CC-BY 2.5 license that had already been or could be incorporated 
into OSM, (not CC-SA-BY and not CC 4.0, CC 4.0 did not exist then). 
CC-BY 2.5 is completely compatible with our license except the 
completely impractical provision, (for multi-sourced open data), that 
all contributors be attributed equally - imagine attributing 4m 
contributors on each map made from our data.

I made successful contact with the good folks at data.gov.au with the 
form that I have copied below. The upshot was a series of about 20 
emails between Sept and Nov 2011. They were very helpful and said, yep, 
fine to keep the data and attribute them at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution (now 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#data.gov.au). They 
requested a number of changes to the exact wording and I have verified 
that it is still there.

Since paper trail is very important, I am happy to forward the whole set 
of emails to anyone who requests them - if you want to put them in a 
public place, great.

The most relevant email is this one from 2011-09-21:

-------- Start -------------
Hi Michael,

Thank you for contacting us.

We are happy to provide you with permission that end users of 
OpenStreetMap do not have to attribute all contributors equally, however 
within your wiki we would need links directly to each dataset you are 
using from data.gov.au.  Data.gov.au provides datasets from all three 
tiers of government which involved a number of different legal 
entities.  Providing a link to the record enables correct attribution of 
the data.  This also helps us to demonstrate to agencies how their 
information is being used positively and, hopefully, will encourage more 
open data with can be beneficial to services such as yours.

Please let us know when this alteration is made so we can promote it 
within Australian Government.

Could we also get you to change the reference to our catalogue from 
data.australia.gov.au to data.gov.au.

Thank you and please contact us if you require any further clarification.

data.gov.au team.
-------- End -------------

Hope that helps,

Your Name (optional) 	

Michael Collinson

Email (optional)


michael at osmfoundation.org

Topic (required)


Request to continue using geographic datasets

Message (required)



Thank you for making geographic data available under an open license.

As chairman of the OpenStreetMap Foundation's License Working Group, I 
am writing to ask specific permission to continue incorporating a small 
number of your geographic coordinate datasets in our OpenStreetMap 
global geo-dataset. I previously wrote to Commonwealth Copyright 
Administration, Attorney General’s Department as per earlier 
instructions on your website, but did not receive an answer.

The datasets in question are licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 
Australia (CC-BY). We changing our own license away from CC-BY-SA 2.0 
license since we were advised by Creative Commons that such a license is 
not suitable for highly factual data. We respect the IP rights of others 
and are concerned that with a different license we may not meet your 
needs. We feel that without specific permission to continue, we should 
remove your data.

In summary, we comply with all your licensing conditions EXCEPT that we 
will no longer legally require anyone to making a visual map from our 
data to equally attribute all contributors ... this is a requirement of 
CC-BY, but regretably impractical with hundreds of thousands of 
individual contributors and tens to hundreds of organisational sources. 
I ask your specific permission to continue incorporation of data.gov.au 
geographic datasets provided that a) we only distribute under a free and 
open license as may change from time to time; and b) that we provide 
primary attribution in a reasonable manner for the perpetuity of our 
project, the current mechanism being a website page 

I describe the position in more detail below and I am happy to provide 
anything further. I can call you if that would help.

Michael Collinson

Name & Registered Office:
Openstreetmap Foundation
132 Maney Hill Road, Sutton Coldfield,West Midlands, B72 1JU, United Kingdom
A company limited by guarantee, registered in England and Wales. 
Registration No. 05912761.

- The OpenStreetMap Foundation is a voluntary organisation supporting 
the OpenStreetMap project, a collaborative open project to create a 
world geodata set. Over 400,000 users worldwide are collaborating to 
produce free map data for anyone anywhere to use.

- Most of our geodata is contributed by individuals. However, we are 
very grateful when able to incorporate other geo-data datasets where license
terms are compatible and I thank you and the Australian Government for
making such data available.

- We have some data in our database that is derived from data.gov.au 

- We intend to make our geodata available in perpetuity under a free and 
open licence

- We intend to move that license very shortly from Creative Commons
Attribution/Share-Alike 2.0, which is explicitly compatible with your
licenses, to Open Database License 1.0 [1], an attribution and
share-alike license written specifically for databases. We do this in
major part because Creative Commons stated that theirs was not an
appropriate license for data and because it is highly impractical to
force users of our data to attribute every contributor to our database
in all parts of the world on all maps.

- We directly attribute you [2].

- We have almost finished altering our systems so that each and any
extraction of even a single point will contain a link to our attribution
page. There is therefore a direct attribution trail back to the you.

- HOWEVER, the Open Database License does not force anyone who makes a
map from our data, a "Produced Work" rather than a derived database, to
individually attribute each and every contributor to OpenStreetMap,
which number several hundred thousand and a large and growing number of 
formal first-level attribution notices. A map might be made anywhere in 
the world and even if in Australia may or may not contain information 
derived from you.

[1] http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution and

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