[talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)

[Mike King]

Hi Graeme

I’m not sure I can offer any advice on tagging but I’ve worked in land administration and can offer some general guidance on the hierarchy of land classification.  My knowledge is mostly Queensland based but I believe all of the states have a similar system given that ultimate authority over land is federal.  The nested hierarchy is simply Country>State>LGA>suburb (or locality)>parcel.  That is parcels comprise suburbs, suburbs comprise LGAs and LGAs comprise states so there is a complete coverage or fabric over the land and inshore areas.  The regions mentioned will most likely not have any admin status unless they are associated with an act of legislation (such as South East Queensland which now has defined boundary of the common participating councils).  There may be other areas such as Parishes or Counties which are still used in legal titles but these are largely no longer used for anything other than that due to the fact they were drawn up in an age which predates most modern systems and in a time where the local Church as something people recognised as a centre of an area.

Maybe someone working with cadastral fabrics in the states can provide more detail if required.

Kind Regards

Mike King
GIS Specialist
NHVR Solutions, Corporate Services
National Heavy Vehicle Regulator
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From: Graeme Fitzpatrick [mailto:graemefitz1 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 2 September 2020 10:38 AM
To: OSM-Au
Subject: [talk-au] Admin levels for LGAs / suburbs etc changed (Was "Suburbs & admin boundaries stopping streets being found?)

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 18:39, Andrew Harvey <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com<mailto:andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 11:21, cleary <osm at 97k.com<mailto:osm at 97k.com>> wrote:

I looked at the Wiki. It is quite a while since I looked at the section on administrative boundaries. My recollection is that it used to have LGA as admin_level=6 and suburb as level 9 or 10.  I do not recall any discussion of inclusion of regions, districts and townsites nor any previous discussion in regard to changing the level of LGA.   The wiki includes a link to a downloadable example which is headed "Australian Boundary Tagging _ OSM" but with copyright attributed to Government of Western Australia.  I am not sure how the current content of wiki was arrived at.  My memory is not perfect so perhaps someone can remind me how the wiki content on administrative boundaries and the WA Government copyright document was reached.

In NSW there are land districts defined in legislation with administrative boards etc so they could be included if we could get permission to use the source data (not included in current approval as far as I am aware) and there are probably equivalents in other jurisdictions. I think administrative boundaries must be sourced from government.   In NSW,  land districts are larger in area than local government areas (LGAs) but their influence and importance is (in my view) much less than LGAs - the Greater Sydney Local Land Services board has the majority of its membership appointed by the Minister for Agriculture and few Sydney residents would even know of its existence or role.  I'd want to put them at level 11, certainly not a higher level than the LGAs.  I do not think that a larger area automatically warrants a higher administrative level.

I am open to changing and developing our guidelines. However some boundaries are not necessarily administrative  e.g. Eyre Peninsula (natural region),  Barossa Valley District (protected area), Illawarra Region, New England Region.  Some boundaries might be tourist labels or have local currency but would need to be mapped as something other than administrative.

Sorry I'm getting offtopic here...

I'm only familiar with NSW but for example we have a few non-administrative regions/districts mapped

Illawarra https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876497 tagged as place=region without an admin_level
Northern Beaches https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876483 tagged as place=district without an admin_level
Lower North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876484 tagged as place=district without an admin_level
Upper North Shore https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11373192 tagged as place=district without an admin_level
St George https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7876480 tagged as place=district without an admin_level
others could be added like The Shire, South Coast, Hunter Valley, Central Coast, Hills District, Eastern Suburbs, Blue Mountains + regional regions/districts.

I agree that these are not administrative boundaries so I'm fine with not giving them an admin_level, and it's a fair argument that these are not verifiable on the ground, but nonetheless they do exist and people refer to them frequently in conversation.

In terms of the admin_level for LGA's I think if we have administrative regions or not shouldn't really affect the admin_level value too much, I think going with what most other countries use for

Reposting this as my reply only went to Cleary, not the list, & it seems important enough to follow up. Sorry if it's a bit messy & confused!

On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 11:21, cleary <osm at 97k.com<mailto:osm at 97k.com>> wrote:

I looked at the Wiki. It is quite a while since I looked at the section on administrative boundaries. My recollection is that it used to have LGA as admin_level=6 and suburb as level 9 or 10.

I had the same vague memory?

 I do not recall any discussion of inclusion of regions, districts and townsites nor any previous discussion in regard to changing the level of LGA.

Did a bit of searching & it appears it was only changed on 15/7/20, but no, I certainly don't remember any discussion?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Admin_level_10&diff=prev&oldid=2012028

Makes reference to "Australian Tagging Review (2012 / 2016)", but that doesn't help me much either?


Thanks

Graeme



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