[talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia

Matthew Davalle matthewdavalle1 at gmail.com
Tue Aug 10 08:09:18 UTC 2021


I've been mapping quite a bit of 'sidewalks' around Melbourne lately and
I'd agree with the notion that sidewalks are supposed to be added
separately because of how many oddities there are in the greater 'network'
of sidewalks around Melbourne however I firmly believe that a pedestrian
can make an informed decision to cross the road to save some time where the
crossing is further than 20 meters away as defined by Vicroads, than the
router should reroute the trip accordingly.

Other than that, I believe that adding tags to the roadways instead of
mapping sidewalks separately would create issues on the ground with
footpaths ending suddenly, merging with existing cycleways / shared paths,
etc so it would be wise to map them separately in my opinion.

Thanks


On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 2:26 PM <talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Sidewalks in Australia (Tom Brennan)
>    2. Re: Sidewalks in Australia (Graeme Fitzpatrick)
>    3. Re: Sidewalks in Australia (osm.talk-au at thorsten.engler.id.au)
>    4. Re: Sidewalks in Australia (Sam Wilson)
>    5. Re: Sidewalks in Australia (Andrew Harvey)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 12:55:35 +1000
> From: Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com>
> To: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: [talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia
> Message-ID: <3da66230-5701-163c-c22c-e26e677bbfb5 at ozultimate.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I've been using the current lockdown to walk and cycle all of the
> streets of my LGA (Willoughby), and I've been checking back to OSM to
> see if there's anything needing updating. For the most part it's just
> minor edits here and there.
>
> I had a couple of questions, one of which I'll address in this email:
>
> highway=footway, footway=sidewalk or highway=*, sidewalk=*
>
> Is there a view for Australia as to which method of mapping sidewalks
> (yes, I'm using the US term because it's unambiguous here) should be
> used? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks
>
> At the moment there are a lot of separately mapped sidewalks in the
> Willoughby LGA, but it's patchy at best. There are streets with
> sidewalks mapped next to other unmapped streets, there are lots of
> connectivity issues, sidewalks end unexpectedly. I don't intend to put
> too much effort into cleaning it up, but where I do make changes, I'd
> prefer to make things better rather than worse!
>
> Hence my asking.
>
> I'm not much of a fan of separately mapped sidewalks, because there tend
> to be an infinite number of places you can walk/cross etc, and any
> mapping fails to capture this. But I'm not too concerned with opening a
> debate if it's already been prosecuted! Just with what the Australian
> "standard" is.
>
> cheers
> Tom
> ----
> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 13:23:14 +1000
> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
> To: Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com>
> Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAP4zaXr20c83r_YCLh9-7W+oEYA13HhostrCyvq1wLendQRODw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 at 13:00, Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not much of a fan of separately mapped sidewalks, because there tend
> > to be an infinite number of places you can walk/cross etc, and any
> > mapping fails to capture this. But I'm not too concerned with opening a
> > debate if it's already been prosecuted! Just with what the Australian
> > "standard" is.
> >
>
> G'day Tom
>
> I don't think there is one, either in Australia, or Internationally!
>
> I must admit to preferring highway=footway, tracing the line of the visible
> footpath on imagery, & only adding crossings at recognised crossing points,
> where a ramp has been provided down over the gutter.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 13:47:40 +1000
> From: <osm.talk-au at thorsten.engler.id.au>
> To: "'OSM Australian Talk List'" <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia
> Message-ID: <05e001d78d9a$78e6a360$6ab3ea20$@thorsten.engler.id.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> My personal preference is to map sidewalks separately like Graeme
> described below, plus:
>
>
>
> sidewalk:left=separate and/or sidewalk:right =separate on the road
>
> street relation with sidewalks added using ?sidewalk? role
>
>
>
> I?m also mapping driveways and the intersections between driveways and
> sidewalks, that way the sidewalks have a high level of connectivity with
> the road.
>
>
>
> From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 August 2021 13:23
> To: Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com>
> Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 at 13:00, Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com <mailto:
> website at ozultimate.com> > wrote:
>
>
> I'm not much of a fan of separately mapped sidewalks, because there tend
> to be an infinite number of places you can walk/cross etc, and any
> mapping fails to capture this. But I'm not too concerned with opening a
> debate if it's already been prosecuted! Just with what the Australian
> "standard" is.
>
>
>
> G'day Tom
>
>
>
> I don't think there is one, either in Australia, or Internationally!
>
>
>
> I must admit to preferring highway=footway, tracing the line of the
> visible footpath on imagery, & only adding crossings at recognised crossing
> points, where a ramp has been provided down over the gutter.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20210810/37f95c35/attachment-0001.htm
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 11:49:36 +0800
> From: Sam Wilson <sam at samwilson.id.au>
> To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia
> Message-ID: <ebe72ffe-f70e-9b78-cadb-1cda0d176041 at samwilson.id.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I normally do separate ways, because it's easier to more accurately map
> the topology.
>
> I just pretend I'm pushing a wheelbarrow (or stroller or am using a
> wheelchair) and wonder what sort of connectivity and data I'd want to be
> able to navigate. For instance, it might be possible as you say for lots
> of people to cross a road from pavement to pavement anywhere along the
> road, but that's not true of everyone. Instead, I think we should map
> the crossings (highway=footway and footway=crossing), even better with
> tactile paving, curb ramp info, etc. ? and that's harder when the
> pavements are included in the road's way (as sidewalk tags).
>
> But yeah, it's patchy and there doesn't seem to be much of a standard! :-)
>
> On 10/8/21 10:55 am, Tom Brennan wrote:
> > I've been using the current lockdown to walk and cycle all of the
> > streets of my LGA (Willoughby), and I've been checking back to OSM to
> > see if there's anything needing updating. For the most part it's just
> > minor edits here and there.
> >
> > I had a couple of questions, one of which I'll address in this email:
> >
> > highway=footway, footway=sidewalk or highway=*, sidewalk=*
> >
> > Is there a view for Australia as to which method of mapping sidewalks
> > (yes, I'm using the US term because it's unambiguous here) should be
> > used? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks
> >
> > At the moment there are a lot of separately mapped sidewalks in the
> > Willoughby LGA, but it's patchy at best. There are streets with
> > sidewalks mapped next to other unmapped streets, there are lots of
> > connectivity issues, sidewalks end unexpectedly. I don't intend to put
> > too much effort into cleaning it up, but where I do make changes, I'd
> > prefer to make things better rather than worse!
> >
> > Hence my asking.
> >
> > I'm not much of a fan of separately mapped sidewalks, because there
> > tend to be an infinite number of places you can walk/cross etc, and
> > any mapping fails to capture this. But I'm not too concerned with
> > opening a debate if it's already been prosecuted! Just with what the
> > Australian "standard" is.
> >
> > cheers
> > Tom
> > ----
> > Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> > Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-au mailing list
> > Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 14:20:04 +1000
> From: Andrew Harvey <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>
> To: Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com>
> Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Sidewalks in Australia
> Message-ID:
>         <CAD5Vjsu=FsgKZNy2XAjiuOnBCHLj4sCTAhxNEB6=
> dyXj_JANVg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 at 13:00, Tom Brennan <website at ozultimate.com> wrote:
>
> > I've been using the current lockdown to walk and cycle all of the
> > streets of my LGA (Willoughby), and I've been checking back to OSM to
> > see if there's anything needing updating. For the most part it's just
> > minor edits here and there.
> >
>
> I've probably passed you without realising then.
>
> At the moment there are a lot of separately mapped sidewalks in the
> > Willoughby LGA, but it's patchy at best. There are streets with
> > sidewalks mapped next to other unmapped streets, there are lots of
> > connectivity issues, sidewalks end unexpectedly. I don't intend to put
> > too much effort into cleaning it up, but where I do make changes, I'd
> > prefer to make things better rather than worse!
> >
>
> Maybe some of those I added. I usually just add a bit at a time, there is a
> lot left to do.
>
>
> > I'm not much of a fan of separately mapped sidewalks, because there tend
> > to be an infinite number of places you can walk/cross etc, and any
> > mapping fails to capture this. But I'm not too concerned with opening a
> > debate if it's already been prosecuted! Just with what the Australian
> > "standard" is.
> >
>
> Our footpath (sidewalk) mapping is usually for where there is some kind of
> facility or infrastructure for pedestrians, so separately mapped doesn't
> mean that's the only place you can physically access.
>
> I try to map footpath facilities as both separate highway=footway +
> footway=sidewalk ways and on the roadway with sidewalk:left=separate +
> sidewalk:right=separate.
>
> Some data consumers (map renderers, routers) will prefer to use the
> sidewalk tags to check if there is a footpath on the road here or not,
> while other data consumers will prefer to have the exact path mapped
> separately.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 at 13:53, Sam Wilson <sam at samwilson.id.au> wrote:
>
> > I normally do separate ways, because it's easier to more accurately map
> > the topology.
> >
> > I just pretend I'm pushing a wheelbarrow (or stroller or am using a
> > wheelchair) and wonder what sort of connectivity and data I'd want to be
> > able to navigate. For instance, it might be possible as you say for lots
> > of people to cross a road from pavement to pavement anywhere along the
> > road, but that's not true of everyone. Instead, I think we should map
> > the crossings (highway=footway and footway=crossing), even better with
> > tactile paving, curb ramp info, etc. ? and that's harder when the
> > pavements are included in the road's way (as sidewalk tags).
> >
>
> Love the wheelbarrow analogy!
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