[talk-au] Aus tagging guidelines on highway surface tags

[Little Maps]

Thanks for your helpful feedback folks, I’ll add an sentence or 2 on using detailed surface tags rather than just paved vs unpaved and will update the guidelines this week. 

If you’re interested in seeing the state of play across the nation, this overpass query shows paved, unpaved and untagged roads in different colours for each road hierarchy level (primary, secondary, etc). It’s a great way to see where the gaps are and how much fantastic work the OSM community has accomplished.

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/12Zg

If you haven’t used overpass before, it’s super simple...
Click on the link above and a map will open in your browser
Press the run button in the top left corner and wait a bit
You can turn the confusing circles off by pressing the Settings button at the top, then selecting the Map option and then putting a tick in the box that says, ‘Don’t display all features as POIs’ and pushing Save.
You can hide the programming box on the left by pushing the left arrow button below the +/- symbols
Then push Run again, and magic!
You can move the map around to any part of the world.
OSM is truly awesome :)

> On 31 Jan 2021, at 5:35 pm, Bob Cameron <bob3bob3 at skymesh.com.au> wrote:
> 
> Ian/all 
> 
> I have been boldly marking paved and no-tag as asphalt, causeways/fords/bridges as concrete (etc) as a result of examining my own Mapillary imagery, sometimes dovetailing that with the DCS data. These are not only regional highways, but backroads and most of small towns. 
> 
> I actually use the overpass query to help route plan, deliberately checking those with no tag. The query also showed a number of really strange errors, like only the ends of a rural road are paved in real life, yet an entire road was paved (with a surface tag) on OSM (West Wilcannia Rd from Menindee to Wilcannia for example) 
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/98337907 
> 
> My Garmin GPS unit with an OSM based map tries to route me down unpaved roads too.. Good surface information will give credibility to OSM map data for general navigating. 
> 
> I'll admit I have concerns that my surface tags for a paved highway might be removed, so I welcome the change. 
> 
> Bob 
> 
> 
> On 31/1/21 3:13 pm, Little Maps wrote:
>> Hi folks, wondering if I can promote some discussion about the section of the Aus tagging guidelines on adding surface tags on roads. The text currently reads,
>> 
>> “For most types of highway=* tags you don't need to specify the surface=paved key/value pair as this is assumed, however make sure you tag the road surface when it isn't a paved road.”
>> 
>> This assumption is fine in large cities but is problematic in rural and regional Australia. Can I suggest that it is replaced by something like the following...
>> 
>> "Surface tags should be added to roads wherever possible, especially in regional areas. This advice differs from that on the international key:surface wiki page, which states that, 'there is normally an assumption that the surface is surface=paved unless otherwise stated.' However this assumption is not valid across regional Australia as: (1) most roads, including many major roads, are unpaved, and (2) mapping intensity varies greatly among regions. Many roads that do not have a surface tag may not have been examined by mappers. Adding a surface tag will assist data users and help mappers to further refine the regional road network."
>> 
>> Long rationale (not for posting on the oz tagging guidelines page)...
>> 
>> Surface tags have been added to relatively few rural roads in many regions. Hence, the most prudent assumption is that the absence of a surface tag means that the road surface has not received attention from mappers. A default assumption that any road without a surface tag is actually paved is most likely wrong.
>> 
>> Efficiency of mapping. Even if one has no interest in adding tags to paved roads, the most efficient way to refine surface tags is to interrogate untagged roads and tag them (e.g. by using an overpass query that distinguishes untagged, paved and unpaved roads, and variants thereof. Untagged roads can be inspected and tagged as appropriate.) However, if mappers are advised to not tag paved roads, then every paved road that is untagged needs to be re-examined each time this is attempted. This wastes a lot of effort.
>> 
>> Some apps — especially routing and cycling apps (e.g. Osmand and Komoot) — allow users to request paved or unpaved routes. Regardless of the (unknown) assumptions that routers make about road surfaces when creating routes, apps like Osmand present the data back to users. The suggested route may be X% paved, Y% unpaved and Z% unknown. In many regions, Unknown is the largest category. This doesn’t inspire confidence in the route or underlying data.
>> 
>> Some assumptions about road surfaces can obviously be made. For example, a primary road is more likely to be paved than an unclassified road. However, most roads in rural areas are tertiary or unclassified. Some are paved, many not; the ratio varies unpredictably across regions and it is impossible to predict which roads are paved unless they are tagged.
>> 
>> Perhaps not surprisingly, the OSM wiki on key:surface gives conflicting advice, beginning with the (European?) position that “there is normally an assumption that the surface is surface=paved unless otherwise stated” and later adding an (American?) view that, “There are no default values for surface, it is generally considered as OK and desirable to tag it explicitly for all roads.” The latter approach seems most appropriate in regional Australia.
>> 
>> Adding surface tags to both paved and unpaved ways is the most efficient method to: (1) allow data users to accurately predict road conditions (this benefits users) and (2) improve the rate at which unpaved roads can be reliably distinguished from paved roads (this helps future mappers). They may be redundant on motorways, trunk and primary roads, but these make up a tiny proportion of roads in regional Australia and can all be coded with a minimum of effort.
>> 
>> Advising mappers to not add a meaningful tag would appear to be counter to the goals of accurate tagging. Can we change our advice to encourage mappers to add a surface tag wherever possible?
>> 
>> Thanks for your time, I'm keen to hear your thoughts. Best wishes, Ian
>> 
>> 
>> 
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