[talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?

Daniel O'Connor daniel.oconnor at gmail.com
Fri Jul 2 14:05:25 UTC 2021


> Before starting any mapping activity, we have downloaded the same file
> from the SA gov site that you were referring to.
>
The second example is easy to fix – all you need is to extend the road name
> along the driveway/street – and that's it. However, there's no chance to
> know where the road's name starts and where it ends for the first example.
>
>

Uh. The data.sa.gov.au file contains both names and geometry of the road.
They *also* reflect this same dataset through location.sa.gov.au; and while
we cant use the latter in OSM, it very neatly describes where the believe a
road intersects a parcel of owned land.
Broadly, the data.sa.gov.au file strongly reflects the on the ground access
as they understand it - it overlaps very heavily with the gazetted streets.

Extending a name along a driveway; based on satellite imagery is the wrong
approach.


... since these roads would technically float. Also, all of these roads
> would be unreachable since these are public (searchable) roads 'stuck
> between' private roads.
>
> You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the title system in
Australia.
Council/gov maintained roads - free access.
Something else? Very likely private, permissive, or destination. The
likelyhood of highway residential in the middle of a cattle station with
everything else private? very small.

There are ~2000+ changesets your team has done. Perhaps only 350 of them
added connectivity, but from sampling; many, many more added wrongly
classified roads on the changesets I looked at (approx 50, 75% or so added
highway=residential, unclassified, etc).

Unfortunately at this point the onus is on your team to prove to a high
degree their mapping is accurate; and beyond your particular use cases
alone; vs folks like myself who go places based on the data and try not to
get arrested.

The through routing is only a singular scenario, there are other current
ones such as wandrer.org - a data consumer that encourages you to explore
every public road.



>   We recognized that some of these roads might be classified even as
> tracks. The government dataset identifies these segments as regular roads,
> but it is clear that some of these are tracks.
>
>
>
> The problem regarding private roads still stays an open question as it was
> for months now. We had the same online and offline discussion before, and
> there were no conclusions or consensus on fighting this problem. My team
> will not add any new roads now, but editors will go back and fix these ~350
> roads. We are very thankful for provided feedback, and we will try not to
> produce such issues in the future since we are trying to follow all
> community rules and be completely open and transparent.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nemanja
>
>
>
> *From:* Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 29, 2021 11:21 AM
> *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
> contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jun 28, 2021, 13:18 by talk-au at openstreetmap.org:
>
> We have to fix these 349 roads that provide connectivity and do not have
> any barrier tag. We can adjust their classification in the form of unclassified|residential
> > service + service=driveway (if/where applicable), but we *cannot* add
> any access=private|destination tags since we do not have ground truth.
>
> If it is highly likely/almost certain that roads are inaccessible then
> maybe
>
>
>
> access=private + fixme="verify is access really private, road mapped from
> aerial imagery"
>
>
>
> or
>
>
>
> access=unknown
>
>
>
> would be a good idea? Especially in cases where misleading marking road as
> accessible
>
> can cause direct risk to life, and as I understand this is a situation in
> remote Australia?
>
>
>
> When I map amenity=parking from aerial images I ususaly add access=unknown
> where
>
> private access is quite likely?
>
>
>
> (disclaimer: I never visited Australia)
>
> (disclaimer: access=unknown for roads is - as far as I know - not a
> standard tagging)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cleary osm at 97k.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:12 AM
> To: OpenStreetMap talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification
> contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
>
>
>
> Nemanjo
>
>
>
> I have a strong contrary view.  I have mapped some isolated parts of South
> Australia, although not recently. Routing vehicles onto private roads
> creates significant issues for farmers, including threats to biosecurity.
> It can also endanger naive motorists to send them onto (sometimes
> impassable) tracks well out of phone range in any emergency. Adding such
> roads discredits OSM as a usable data source for many users.
>
>
>
> Further, the Government of South Australia has been most generous in
> making a lot of data available to OSM, long before other Australian
> jurisdictions. Available data includes Roads (
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.data.sa.gov.au%2Fdataset%2Froads&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7Cb90613c106cb433c9b0208d93a9339fd%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637605226327455895%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=QX2FnOP975CDBfwbElUqKwcqpg3ttgA%2F0RFi6BOoKvk%3D&reserved=0)
> which shows a lot of information including the class of roads and names
> (where applicable). The data also shows extensive tracks that could be used
> by private owners or emergency services etc but are not public roads.
> Public roads will have a class such as LOCL (local roads) or HWY (highway)
> and they have names.
>
>
>
> From my experience "on the ground", any road in that database which is
> unnamed is almost certainly not intended for public access.  Your team
> could refer to this data source and ensure that unnamed roads are shown as
> access=private.
>
>
>
> Please keep OSM showing usable and helpful data rather than discredit it
> with data that can alienate farmers, endanger their stock and crops, and
> also endanger road users.
>
>
>
> Michael Cleary
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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