[talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?

Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) v-nebrac at microsoft.com
Fri Jul 2 14:43:31 UTC 2021


Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the reply!

Please note that provided samples are examples. This community also claimed in this Talk-AU list that government classification might be different from OSM classification. Per data, it might be a trunk road, but it is primary per OSM classification since it is not the double-carriage way - again, just an example).
The second example you refer to had just a small portion of the named road in a dead-end way. The previous segment is unnamed. Reasons might be various for that. Again, it is just an example.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the title system in Australia.
Council/gov maintained roads - free access.
Something else? Very likely private, permissive, or destination. The likelyhood of highway residential in the middle of a cattle station with everything else private? very small.

Maybe I wasn't clear here. It is hard to have a public, free access road 'stuck between' two private roads. That means it is not possible to come to the public road in any possible way. Cleary's claimed that basically, every unnamed road is private, which I'm providing an example of that is hard to be the case if you look in government data. This is an example of the situation: https://prnt.sc/17ucsdg. It's hard to have private roads marked as red and public (free access) roads marked as white.

I do not know how many changesets the team made on top of my head, but I have provided an exact number of segments that need some change. I have also claimed there are 1,244 individual roads (mapped as 2,523 segments) with classification errors. Still, it won't prevent any routing thru it if we just adjust their classification in the form of unclassified|residential > service + service=driveway (if/where applicable). This is why this topic turned its course to access=private|destination way.

I hope this clarifies some things.

Thanks,
Nemanja

From: Daniel O'Connor <daniel.oconnor at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 4:05 PM
To: Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) <v-nebrac at microsoft.com>
Cc: Mateusz Konieczny <matkoniecz at tutanota.com>; OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?



Before starting any mapping activity, we have downloaded the same file from the SA gov site that you were referring to.
The second example is easy to fix - all you need is to extend the road name along the driveway/street - and that's it. However, there's no chance to know where the road's name starts and where it ends for the first example.


Uh. The data.sa.gov.au<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.sa.gov.au%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059210517%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=PUf2vMuAs6vOIpIvWkECBso3rfGCc7Anl8k8nyob7WQ%3D&reserved=0> file contains both names and geometry of the road. They *also* reflect this same dataset through location.sa.gov.au<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flocation.sa.gov.au%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059210517%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=zuSR2Fc3Jq6kLFKOdABQKD9%2F4UBuGPELGZyUA746Sog%3D&reserved=0>; and while we cant use the latter in OSM, it very neatly describes where the believe a road intersects a parcel of owned land.
Broadly, the data.sa.gov.au<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.sa.gov.au%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059220518%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=TyO1clv06MaBIGkW%2FDF8lYtwRmsSKIwNDTo8Z34WE14%3D&reserved=0> file strongly reflects the on the ground access as they understand it - it overlaps very heavily with the gazetted streets.

Extending a name along a driveway; based on satellite imagery is the wrong approach.


... since these roads would technically float. Also, all of these roads would be unreachable since these are public (searchable) roads 'stuck between' private roads.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the title system in Australia.
Council/gov maintained roads - free access.
Something else? Very likely private, permissive, or destination. The likelyhood of highway residential in the middle of a cattle station with everything else private? very small.

There are ~2000+ changesets your team has done. Perhaps only 350 of them added connectivity, but from sampling; many, many more added wrongly classified roads on the changesets I looked at (approx 50, 75% or so added highway=residential, unclassified, etc).

Unfortunately at this point the onus is on your team to prove to a high degree their mapping is accurate; and beyond your particular use cases alone; vs folks like myself who go places based on the data and try not to get arrested.

The through routing is only a singular scenario, there are other current ones such as wandrer.org<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwandrer.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059230515%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=N1yVtYZRi%2BysRe%2F4iBc3js6hCOsoS644YPaT1wM%2B%2BFI%3D&reserved=0> - a data consumer that encourages you to explore every public road.



  We recognized that some of these roads might be classified even as tracks. The government dataset identifies these segments as regular roads, but it is clear that some of these are tracks.

The problem regarding private roads still stays an open question as it was for months now. We had the same online and offline discussion before, and there were no conclusions or consensus on fighting this problem. My team will not add any new roads now, but editors will go back and fix these ~350 roads. We are very thankful for provided feedback, and we will try not to produce such issues in the future since we are trying to follow all community rules and be completely open and transparent.

Thanks,
Nemanja

From: Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <talk-au at openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-au at openstreetmap.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 11:21 AM
Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-au at openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?




Jun 28, 2021, 13:18 by talk-au at openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-au at openstreetmap.org>:
We have to fix these 349 roads that provide connectivity and do not have any barrier tag. We can adjust their classification in the form of unclassified|residential > service + service=driveway (if/where applicable), but we cannot add any access=private|destination tags since we do not have ground truth.
If it is highly likely/almost certain that roads are inaccessible then maybe

access=private + fixme="verify is access really private, road mapped from aerial imagery"

or

access=unknown

would be a good idea? Especially in cases where misleading marking road as accessible
can cause direct risk to life, and as I understand this is a situation in remote Australia?

When I map amenity=parking from aerial images I ususaly add access=unknown where
private access is quite likely?

(disclaimer: I never visited Australia)
(disclaimer: access=unknown for roads is - as far as I know - not a standard tagging)


-----Original Message-----
From: Cleary osm at 97k.com<mailto:osm at 97k.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:12 AM
To: OpenStreetMap talk-au at openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?



Nemanjo



I have a strong contrary view.  I have mapped some isolated parts of South Australia, although not recently. Routing vehicles onto private roads creates significant issues for farmers, including threats to biosecurity. It can also endanger naive motorists to send them onto (sometimes impassable) tracks well out of phone range in any emergency. Adding such roads discredits OSM as a usable data source for many users.



Further, the Government of South Australia has been most generous in making a lot of data available to OSM, long before other Australian jurisdictions. Available data includes Roads (https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.data.sa.gov.au%2Fdataset%2Froads&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7Cb90613c106cb433c9b0208d93a9339fd%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637605226327455895%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=QX2FnOP975CDBfwbElUqKwcqpg3ttgA%2F0RFi6BOoKvk%3D&reserved=0<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.data.sa.gov.au%2Fdataset%2Froads&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059240507%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=%2B9Qj3KaV%2FoiWT%2BpJetCmrz6hnbkmVeJHhoNgKXdxqdw%3D&reserved=0>)  which shows a lot of information including the class of roads and names (where applicable). The data also shows extensive tracks that could be used by private owners or emergency services etc but are not public roads.  Public roads will have a class such as LOCL (local roads) or HWY (highway) and they have names.



>From my experience "on the ground", any road in that database which is unnamed is almost certainly not intended for public access.  Your team could refer to this data source and ensure that unnamed roads are shown as access=private.



Please keep OSM showing usable and helpful data rather than discredit it with data that can alienate farmers, endanger their stock and crops, and also endanger road users.



Michael Cleary

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