[talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?

cleary osm at 97k.com
Wed Jul 14 12:42:24 UTC 2021


Nemanja 

Logic suggests that a road that is intended for public use would have access from another public road. Even if I, or someone else, were to drive in that area in the future to re-survey, it is unlikely that the road identified as "Loutts Road" could be accessed without trespassing on private property, suggesting it cannot really be a public road. 

In more remote parts of Australia, there are fewer people than in past years. Whole towns have disappeared and smaller farms have been consolidated into much larger ones, often operated by corporations. In the process, roads that were once public have gradually been made private and responsibility for maintenance falls to landholders rather than government authorities. Quite a few roads that once were public roads are now private.  I suspect that Loutts Road is in that category.  One possibility is that only part of Loutts Road was privatised  but the remaining section, although theoretically public, is inaccessible. Another possibility is that, when it was made private, the name was intended to be removed. Although removed in the database from the section which provides access from Parnaroo Road, the name for the more distant section might have been accidentally left in the database.  

As it cannot be accessed, there is probably no harm in showing it as a public road. But, on balance, I think access=private is more prudent.

Thanks again for your thorough consultation. 




On Wed, 14 Jul 2021, at 8:42 PM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) wrote:
>  
> Hi all,
>  
> Thanks for the replies!
> Before we start, please confirm one last thing.
> Since we were able to find many cases like this:
> https://prntscr.com/1b1ktyz
> what would you suggest to do in the shown example?
>  
> Please note that it might be the case that we are unable to find any 
> gates or barriers on the aerial imagery.
>  
> I suppose that *access=public* is here just to emphasize that road is 
> public, but it is an implicit tag.
>  
> Thanks once again,
> Nemanja
>  
> *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com> 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:20 AM
> *To:* osm at 97k.com
> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification 
> contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
>  
> Hi Nemanja
>  
> Sorry, been busy packing to go away!
>  
> Thanks for asking for further feedback :-)
>  
> Yep, I'd go along with Michael - if it's named on the Govt data, then 
> highway=unclassified + access=public; if not named highway=unclassified 
> + access=private.
>  
> You'd probably also be able to add surface=unpaved to just about all of them.
>  
> Thanks
>  
> Graeme
>  
>  
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 09:56, cleary <osm at 97k.com> wrote:
> > Hello again Nemanja
> > 
> > I response to your question, based on my experience, I still have the view that unnamed roads in South Australia are not intended for public access. Therefore, if mapped, they should be tagged as access=private. I don't think there would be any exceptions but, if there are, individual mappers who survey such areas could later amend the access tags and/or add names as appropriate.  
> > 
> > If the roads actually exist then I have no problem with mapping them. My particular concern is that failing to tag them as private could endanger lives and livelihoods. 
> > 
> > Thanks for your diligence in following up this issue
> > 
> > Michael Cleary
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 12 Jul 2021, at 11:07 PM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au wrote:
> > >  
> > > Hi,
> > >  
> > > I know it might be a vacation period for most people, but if you are 
> > > still online, we would like to know which method is more acceptable for 
> > > the whole community before we proceed.
> > >  
> > > I really appreciate any help you can provide.
> > > Nemanja
> > >  
> > > *From:* Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) 
> > > *Sent:* Monday, July 5, 2021 8:59 AM
> > > *To:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>; Ewen Hill 
> > > <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> > > *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > *Subject:* RE: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification 
> > > contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> > >  
> > > Thanks again for the constructive suggestions.
> > >  
> > > My team will treat this very carefully and as a high priority.
> > >  
> > > Two main questions are here:
> > >  * Do you want us to correct the classification for every of these 
> > > ~2500 segments?
> > >    * If the answer is Yes, please tell us what to do with the access 
> > > tag. We will strictly follow your guideline. We would like to fix it in 
> > > one pass.
> > >  * Do you want us to remove all these roads entirely from the map?
> > >  
> > > Both options are completely fine with us since we have a list of these 
> > > segments already. In any of these two cases, we will process them one 
> > > by one. No bulk edits will be made.
> > >  
> > > Thanks,
> > > Nemanja
> > >  
> > > *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com> 
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, July 4, 2021 2:26 AM
> > > *To:* Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com>
> > > *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification 
> > > contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 at 17:28, Ewen Hill <ewen.hill at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > The examples below could cause significant resentment to OSM and I would suggest that all are private driveways that I can see. Perhaps we need to stop updating, reset and look at how to improve the existing edits. An initial suggestion could be to set all new roads to private, add a fixme and perhaps organise a map-roulette of these? Of the ten edits I sampled, all ten appeared to be private driveways on private property. 
> > > >  
> > > > I am sure a few of us would be happy to discuss some of these changesets with the MS team so we can both learn a little more and see how we can assist before large changesets.
> > > >  
> > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id&way=955658598#map=16/-33.8579/137.7863 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F-33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169910066%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=9LgBBgF70wZpIh0nMmdcByfInBbTR%2F4stThpqxpQhhU%3D&reserved=0> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F-33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C540c3da9302440051c8308d93e82d0c8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637609554073989630%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2B%2BQlVcXIJgEUgsOIRftp7n0MmS1vEI%2FDylKZsTC7tQw%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D955658598%23map%3D16%2F-33.8579%2F137.7863&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169920060%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Jmdp9JZLKLnZT09cF4mPNkMEAtOf8IkCQeBjVXa%2BrLA%3D&reserved=0>>
> > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id&way=956458626#map=17/-34.50327/138.97656 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F-34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169930057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=gvfUkxLym6ohe9cxUUP7c4VTMhvBamw39Fq4H32Xzfw%3D&reserved=0> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F-34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C540c3da9302440051c8308d93e82d0c8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637609554073999629%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7OmOT2bGJDvl0AkZpsRPTFpAjy8eg%2BeokGR%2Fw%2FaBhrc%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956458626%23map%3D17%2F-34.50327%2F138.97656&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169930057%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=gvfUkxLym6ohe9cxUUP7c4VTMhvBamw39Fq4H32Xzfw%3D&reserved=0>>
> > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id&way=956583567#map=16/-32.6304/138.1584 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F-32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169940054%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=gG8gc5cp7xeu2ULS57OpSWXWj9Ra9bvO8SmvvvTFk7c%3D&reserved=0> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F-32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C540c3da9302440051c8308d93e82d0c8%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637609554074009621%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=UOV7p34zrYspkirXpMvy%2BnMEvRQLt2iEheYNCNP1IDU%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fedit%3Feditor%3Did%26way%3D956583567%23map%3D16%2F-32.6304%2F138.1584&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169950049%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ckiULgAJkSS%2FADI4W1C5Ob47gEq%2BYk5qjCVNqukFMjc%3D&reserved=0>>
> > >  
> > > Yes, I'd go along with Ewen here.
> > >  
> > > The first of these examples "could" be a through public road, the 
> > > second looks like two private driveways that join in the middle, & I'd 
> > > be amazed if the third isn't only a driveway.
> > >  
> > > Thanks
> > >  
> > > Graeme
> > >  
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Talk-au mailing list
> > > Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.openstreetmap.org%2Flistinfo%2Ftalk-au&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C654932de7df740885b6e08d945adca64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637617435169960046%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=rx2kf9M%2B8f5Ud0ec0fFLJKFgaUrIkg15uh3xteJoRag%3D&reserved=0>
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
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