[talk-au] Should a "trail" route relation be one-way?

[stevea]

On Sep 5, 2022, at 1:10 AM, Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/9/22 17:41, stevea wrote:
>> On Sep 5, 2022, at 12:23 AM, Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Be careful with the automated tool .. you can end up with the route comprising some 'north bound' bits with some 'south bound bits'.
>> I'm not sure what you mean by "the automated tool," Warin.  I'm only suggesting to use JOSM's relation editor window's "sort" button.
> 
> Yes, those 'sort' buttons are automated tools ... and they don't always 'get it right'.

I'll grudgingly nod my head at this.  But, especially in recent versions of JOSM (and one should always be using the latest version), I'd say this sort button gets it right 99.99+% of the time.  Again, IMO, but what this means is that clicking the sort button in JOSM's relation editor as the last thing you do before closing the relation ("saving" it into JOSM's about-to-upload, but haven't-yet "buffer") is a highly recommended behavior to get into the habit of doing.  Highly!  It REALLY "neatens up" any route relation, and always reveals gaps, an error (however slight) in any route relation.  I have constructed literally thousands of route relations over 13+ years in OSM, maybe 90+% using JOSM (say "yuk!" to relation editing in iD!).  JOSM's sort button is a highly valuable step to both learning how to and actually MAKING relations be well-constructed (route relations especially, but multipolygons as well).  Doing so will accelerate the practice it takes to do this, making the sort button a valuable pedagogical tool for route relation construction (good habits).

Any vanishingly small chance clicking sort doesn't always "get it right" is so small as to be well worth taking.  It's OK to not get it 100% correct "this time" you close the relation editor window, as long as you are committed to coming back and making it better later.  Editing relations in OSM (even using JOSM) is difficult (especially at first):  there is a distinct learning curve and anybody who does it should allow this.  (But don't be TOO sloppy!)

>>> Roles 'forwards' and 'backwards' refer to the direction of travel with respect to the direction of the way - not 'north', 'south' 'east nor 'west'.
>> Yes, I know.  I'm not sure whether Ian does, though thank you for pointing this out, as perhaps I wasn't clear.  My intention was to convey my methodology (which works well) and to inspire Ian to discover (using wiki, practice and experience) whether it might work for him.  Some Contributors DO add cardinal directions as role tags in relations, and that is NOT correct, let's be clear about that.  (Sometimes they do this as "placeholders" during route construction, but this is not recommended as it is confusing to other human editors as these role tags are encountered).
> 
> 
> I'm guilty of adding 'constructional roles' to help me organize, understand and edit these kind of relations. I usually delete the roles .. sometime it takes a second try.

There are some OSM editing-habits which are forgivable.  As JOSM has what can be a pretty steep learning curve, this can be ("short-term") forgiven, if the finish line includes eventually "doing it right."

>>> Route roles are...
>>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route=hiking?uselang=en#Roles
>> Yes, specifically for HIKING routes, this wiki and these role tags are crucial resources to read and use where appropriate.  Ian, it is essential that you read, understand and apply this wiki as appropriate to the Munda Biddi route relations in OSM.
> 
> 
> I'd use the same for bicycle and horse routes .. as that would make sense?

I don't think there are significant differences between these, so yes, that's sensible.  But hiking routes, as noted, are a notorious exception with carefully-tailored role tags which, where applicable, must be used in this specific type of route.

> The one web render I use is https://mtb.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=5810814&type=relation&map=8.0/-33.4621/117.7741 
> 
> I think that uses the same tools for all the routes.

I think so, too.